Debate over. Andre Ward is the greatest SMW ever, well clear of Calzaghe.

Henessey offered Calzaghe 5 million for a Froch fight.

http://www.metro.co.uk/sport/extra/441991-froch-says-no-go-to-joe-calzaghe

And Froch was a big enough name in the UK, Calzaghe's main problem with Froch was that he was relatively unknown in the US. Still 5 million is good money. When Calzaghe finally made it on top, he went for the easy Roy Jones Jr fight instead of the tough Carl Froch fight and then called it a day.

When Andre Ward made it on top, he is still taking on top fighters regardless of money, this is why Ward has gathered up more respect in a short time than Joe Calzaghe did.

There is a reason why Andre Ward is being given praise lately, because he is taking on anyone regardless off money. Calzaghe could/would have got similar praise had he taken the same risks as the likes of Ward, Dawson and Carl Froch when they made it to the top/their peaks.

 

When is all said and done. Ward will be placed much higher in the atg list.

 

Great thread.

Ward definitely deserves respect for taking on the best possible competition, unifying belts, and taking on P4P rated opponents. Joe Cal asked for the crown jewels in order to do that.

Considering how dominant Ward's victories are, it is no contest. Beating a healthy Kessler is greater than beating one with a hand injury. Beating a young Dawson is greater than beating a shot to hell RJJ. Stopping a young Dawson is 10x more impressive than being the only guy to not stop a shot to hell RJJ.

 

Compelling argument. Although I go with Ward, I can appreciate your logic.

Joe never did have all four belts, though and the WBO was pretty fringe at the time he won it.

 

Fair do's.

He won all 4 belts is what I wrote. And he did. He didnt hold all at the same time. He gave up the IBF to secure the Taylor fight. Right choice then, pain in the arse now with hindsight.

Champ makes the belt, not the other way round.

 

It's close, but one or two more good wins at 168 probably gets him there. I do think Calzaghe's win over Kessler is the best win between the two of them (the 5 years' older, inactive and injury-prone version of Kessler that Ward fought clearly was inferior to the version Joe fought), and while Ward's resume keeps up with Calzaghe's (at 168 only, so not counting Hopkins), Calzaghe's still has more depth at this point. A couple more wins over top 10 guys at 168 probably gets him there.

Also, whoever said Calzaghe is the only undisputed champ in 168 pound history is kidding themselves. Ward is undisputed too, belts or no belts. It may not be in the right order, but Ward has beaten everyone who matters, or the people he's beaten has. Ward beat Froch, Kessler, Bika, Abraham and now Dawson (who isn't really a 168 pounder, but whatever). The only three fighters in the weight class who he hasn't fought but matter even a lick are Bute, Dirrell and Stieglitz. Froch beat Bute and Dirrell, Abraham beat Stieglitz. That's all four titles at the weight. Ward is undisputed, and was before beating Dawson.

 

That mention of £5mil is just a quote from Froch himself, but in being fair I'll take his word on it.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/w...e-earned-10m-from-jones-fight-91466-22266911/


Calzaghe wanted to cash out and leave the sport, so I don't think you can really hold it against him. He hardly ran away from Froch or Dawson, he was on his way out, and took the fight worth the most money. He's not the first or the last fighter to choose a fight that is the most lucrative

Sorry but this is revisionism, yes Froch went on to become a top fighter, but at the time he wasn't a name, Calzaghe was the name. Calzaghe was up at LHW, that offer could well have been for a fight at SMW, and at that point Calzaghe was not going to come back down to 175.

Respect for Froch though, he's always wanted the big fights from day one, great fighter.

I see what you're saying, though Ward was fortunate to have the Super Six tournament. Think about it, how else would he have gotten Kessler to come out to Oakland without that tournament. Joe never had that. Ward has fought top fighters, but he's not like Froch or Kessler, who've travelled as well for the big fights. Dawson deserves credit for coming down in weight and travelling to Oakland! Do you think Dawson looked like a dangerous fighter in the ring on Saturday night? I think Froch, Kessler and Abraham and others would have destroyed that version of Dawson

But you're right in saying Ward has fought the top fighters since beating Kessler, he deserves respect. Calzaghe should have done more between Eubank and Lacy, but it wasn't all his fault either, the likes of Hopkins and Steve Collins pulled out of proposed fights.

Ward isn't taking on anyone regardless of money, boxing is all about money.

 

it aint even close. ward has easily passed him. Froch has a better SMW resume too. Ward beats his ass h2h too.

 

How?

Notice you couldnt debate against the details below

at the time Calzaghe had beaten -
Eubank a far greater win than Kessler
Woodhall who had a better SMW resume than Froch at the time
Reid who was a better SMW than Dawson
Veit who was undefeated and became a SMW champ and had a better SMW resume than Abraham who was 1-2 in his last 3 fights when Ward fought him
Sheika who was top 10 rated and had beaten G Johnson, who A Green was KOd by years later when shot.
Starie top 10 rated who had beaten undefeated C Woods who became IBF LHW champ

 

Andre Ward............VS.............Joe Calzaghe
Froch.....................................Kessler

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(Kessler beat Froch)
Kessler...................................Eubank

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Dawson..................................Lacy (Lacy a proven SMW and winner of 5 SMW title fights. Dawson no pedigree at all at SMW)

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Abraham.................................Mitchell (Mitchell a 2 time SMW champ who had never been clearly beaten, only lost by debateable SD in Germany to Ottke, had KOd long time SMW champ Liles, beaten a future SMW champ twice, compared to AA who had done nothing at SMW)

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Bika.......................................Brewer (Bikas best win became Manfredo, Brewer had beaten H Graham and was a SMW champ)

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(Bika was a Calzaghe left over at that time and had been out of the ring bar less than a round for a while)
Green.....................................Woodhall (Woodhall a SMW champ, who had beaten a reigning SMW champ, a world rated former champ, a future SMW champ and Branco a world rated SMW who became WBA LHW champ, who at SMW beat R Reid and G Johnson who when old and shot KOd Green)

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Miranda...................................Bika (Bika now a top 5 SMW had drawn with 3 time SMW champ Beyer)

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Buchanan (?????)......................Sheika

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(Sheika was coming off a win over G Johnson and was a top 10 SMW at the time)
Camou (?????)..........................Veit (Veit a SMW title holder who had a fair resume, better than at least 2 of the current top 5 SMWs)

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Then include the

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win and then the other top 10 SMWs and its clear Calzaghe is well ahead. I could have put

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ahead of Green, Camou, Miranda, Buchanon

Very clear but nobody will have a sensible answer to say otherwise, it will just be a lame Faileys losing it answer when they cant debate against

Somebody tell me how Ward has done more than that.

 

How is is not even close?

It's a question about SMW achievements.

Calzaghe won all belts, had 21 defences, has a better top win and a deeper resume at the weight in question.

Wait, you are right. It isnt even close...........(yet).

 

What about this, it shows that nobody at the time Froch didnt want to fight Calzaghe

Froch ducking Calzaghe
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...cle2395099.ece[/quote]

Froch saying he couldnt beat Calzaghe on points 6:32
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1gVQow_-uA[/ame]

Froch not interested in Calzaghe

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Here was an interesting post made by someone else

Originally Posted by Decebal

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...but he wasn't brave, and didn't want glory and recognition, so Calzaghe had no reason to be interested in him.

Froch only has himself to blame for not registering on Calzaghe's radar. Froch had the chance to make a name for himself earlier, and force Calzaghe to fight him, but chose not to:

In early 2007, the IBF announced that an eliminator fight would take place to get a shot against the IBF Champ Berrio, within a couple of months.

Bute was ranked highest, followed by Froch and Inkin.

Bute said he wanted in. Froch was asked if he wanted to face Bute in the eliminator. He declined and prepared to face Tatevosyan, a journeyman, the man Bute had just taken to school, instread. Inkin declined the opportunity to fight Bute in the eliminator too. The IBF went down the list until they got to Bika, who took up the offer.

Bute fought and beat Bika and then fought Berrio, for the title, in October 2007. Froch fought shot Reid the following month, for the British title, and said he's have KOed both Bute and Berrio on the same night. He also said he was ready to step up, now.

Now he says he'll KO Bute in six rounds, having beaten Rybacki and Pascal, with the Taylor fight not even out of the way.

It's a shame Froch decided to dodge Bute, the man he could have KOed in six rounds, because he could have become IBF Champ in October 2007.

Calzaghe beat Kessler in November 2007. He then looked around and said: there's no one else for me to wait at 168 lbs for. But, things could have been different! After Kessler lost to Calzaghe, he called out Bute and everyone else at 168 lbs, Pavlik, Taylor, Hopkins, etc., but Bute, for example, said he wasn't ready for the likes of Calzaghe or Kessler yet.

If Froch had KOed Bute in six rounds, he could have then beaten Kessler in early 2008, and he'd have had as good a claim to challenge Calzaghe as anyone. No way in hell could Calzaghe have not fought him! The fans would not have allowed it! He couldn't have claimed he was obviously the man at 168 lbs...The money this fight would have made would have been huge!!! So...we could have witnessed Calzaghe v. Froch in 2008...

...but Froch dodged Bute, the man he then claimed he's have KOed on the same night as Berrio, and the man he now claims he'd KO in six rounds, and he fought Bute's leftovers instead...

...a brave man who wanted glory and recognition and who wanted to fight the best?

He could have fought Calzaghe in the biggest British fight for decades, for all the glory and recognition in the world, and for an 8 figure payday, but he chose not to...

...oh, well...:conf

...I guess it's all Calzaghe's fault...:yep

 

Legacy: Fight Froch and Dawson.
Financial: Fight RJJ for 10 Million.

To win polls on ESB threads like these: Froch and Dawson.

The Froch fight was there for a while, after Calzaghe moved up to LHW then the fight made less sense I have to accept that, a fight with Dawson was always there at LHW though, Calzaghe could have taken him on after the RJJ bout.

I think Chad Dawson would beat Arthur Abraham to be honest, Steglitz gave AA hell last time. Ward had the speed to nullify Dawson's speed. Froch has the power to hurt Dawson since Froch hits harder than Ward but I agree with you, Chad Dawson never looked dangerous previous fight, Dawson is a pretty big guy and needs to stick to 175+ from now on.

We have to see what Ward does now, he can take on the likes of Thornberry, Veit and Pudwill to try and break Calzaghe's 21 defences, or he can continue to solidify his legacy by taking on the best.

I understand what you mean, boxing is about the money. A fight with Andre Dirrell/ Gabriel Campillo would be less money but high risk compared to Jean Pascal/Mikkel Kessler. We just have to see Ward's next move to be honest.

 

I understand you saying Froch didn't want Joe Calzaghe, but you have to see it in the right time context. When Joe Calzaghe was a LHW, and Froch became WBC SMW champ then Froch started to forget about Calzaghe. However it is well documented Carl Froch wanted Calzaghe.

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"I'd like to fight Calzaghe, probably next year after a couple of fights for the British title," said Froch.

"That would be an outrageous win because Calzaghe's a good fighter, a very strong fighter, he's been around a few years, and I just feel I've got exactly what you need to beat him." - Carl Froch at 13-0

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/boxing/3673602.stm

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"Froch will have to work like I have done to establish myself on the world scene," - Joe Calzaghe

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/boxing/3698536.stm

After these words where Calzaghe dismissed Carl Froch, Calzaghe went on to fight:-

Kabery Salem
Mario Veit

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"Then when Ashira walked out I almost choked on my cocoa. I had to do a double take to make sure it wasn't Baby Jake Matlala.

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"I have come to expect Joe to pick on easy targets,"

I believe Calzaghe knows that isn't that hard a job.

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/news.php?p=4633&more=1

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"Why doesn't Joe get bold and call me out? Like I said before, perhaps he knows what I do: that I will smoke his boots, I will end his career.

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/news.php?p=4633&more=1

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"Bully's don't call out the real big boys. They like to have things stacked in their favour, they want it all on their own terms. That's why when the going gets tough they run home to their daddies."

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/news.php?p=4633&more=1

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"I know what to do to beat Calzaghe,.......I don't think Calzaghe will fight me unless I put a meaningful title on the line but if I get one of the major belts he could not swerve me. - Carl Froch

"Carl will prove himself to be the best fighter in the country bar none. I truly believe he will knock Calzaghe out." - Fat Mick

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/boxing/5023478.stm

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WBO rankings at this point stood like:-

Champ: Joe Calzaghe
1. Dennis Inkin
2. Lucian Bute
3. Carl Froch

"Joe says he's looking to make the most money possible from his next fight,........ Given the options open to him, that must mean fighting me. It certainly wouldn't mean someone like Inkin. - Carl Froch.

"I am a proper challenger. I am the best in the division and politics shouldn't stop us meeting. It would be an exciting battle before I

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." - Froch

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/boxing/6545105.stm

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"Soon he will have no choice but to

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or fight me, then we will see what kind of man he is" - Carl Froch

we all know what Joe Calzaghe did, he vacated.

"If he is a proud and strong man and a warrior, which I believe he is, he should step in the ring with me and we will put on a great British fight. - Carl Froch

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/boxing/6390425.stm

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"I consider myself world class now," the Nottingham fighter added. "I am on Joe's trail at the moment and I have already said I am willing to step up to light-heavyweight.

"There are other fights out there for me - Jurgen Breahmer and Christian Sannavia - but Joe Calzaghe is the big one for me." - Carl Froch

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/boxing/7085122.stm

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"My argument is not will Joe Calzaghe fight me because maybe I don't want to fight Joe Calzaghe,"

Read more: http://www.metro.co.uk/sport/extra/441991-froch-says-no-go-to-joe-calzaghe#ixzz1zgEGGoiD

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"I dont think that fight will ever happen now, especially as Calzaghe's lifestyle was recently exposed......

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I really dont care if he does come out of retirement or not," - Carl Froch

http://www.***********.com/carl-froch-calzaghe-regret-his-decision-not-me--27129

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"I wanted the challenge and he didn't. End of story - Carl Froch

http://www.***********.com/carl-froch-calzaghe-regret-his-decision-not-me--27129