OK so I rank mainly on H2H, although that doesn't strictly mean the eye test, resume has to be considered so we know the level at which a fighter is performing. I only include fighters I've watched fight, and I tend not to include active fighters as their placing is too dynamic. So here's my MW list Rank First Last 1 Sugar Ray Robinson 2 Marvin Hagler 3 Carlos Monzon 4 Harry Greb 5 Charley Burley 6 Roy Jones Jr 7 Bernard Hopkins 8 Emile Griffith 9 James Toney 10 Mike Gibbons Now usually I don't rank guys I've never seen footage of, but I have seen Tunney and we know Greb is at least as good, if not better than him (atleast whilst they were the same size) and I also know he's better than Mickey Walker and we know there's great dispute about his loss to Flowers. Someone with as great a resume as he does, with as dominant victories over proven world class fighter as he has, has to be a very good boxer. Scratch that, he has to be a great boxer. Does me not being able to see a fight I've read about so many times (Tunney 1) change that, I used to think so but not any more I don't. I've seen enough aggressive swarmers and I've read enough writeups to form a picture in my mind. I've no doubt people out there have read more than me, but I'm happy with what I have so far. Are there any people you feel should be in that aren't? Any orders that need changing?
1. Harry Greb 2. Carlos Monzon 3. Marvin Hagler 4. Sugar Ray Robinson 5. Bernard Hopkins 6. Bob Fitzsimmons 7. Jake LaMotta 8. Freddie Steele 9. Dick Tiger 10. Holman Williams
Man I'd love to put Fitzsimmons in my list, but I just don't know who I'd take out. I need to watch more of his fights and read more about his MW reign, but even then I'm gonna struggle.
I like the MWs (although certainly not as much as LHWs ), it's IMO the most difficult to rank. Fitz is an enigma, and there's so many different view points on how you rate him. Do you include his HW wins, whilst weighing 160? Do you wing it coz there's no footage? Do you ignore his small amount of high-class wins (at MW) and simply rate him at HW? In terms of H2H, I'd pick a fair few MWs ro beat him. 8 from your list (I'd pick Bob over Burley and Gibbo), but if - like me - you include his 'HW' fights around 160 in his MW career, then I can't see him dropped from any list.
My problem with Fitzsimmons is the following contradiction: 1: I read he was a master counter puncher, had otherworldly power, had lightning quick hands and feet, relied on his reflexes, had amazing strength and cardio. 2: I see his fight against James J Corbett and I see that upright leaning back stance. Now don't get me wrong, I will defend the low hands chin out stance of Canzoneri till I'm blue in the face. But leaning backwards to avoid shots, I just can't see it working. And that his stand out performance. We know he wasn't rigid because he slips the jab, steos to the side and counter punches him to the body for the knockout. But man, that stance. That's my main balking point. But then Corbett was considered a modern technician by all who saw him and saw latter day fighters. No one ever really said Corbett was a dinosaur. So if it worked against him does that mean it would be successful? See and that's my problem. It's like a never ending debate. But I just know in my minds eye, edging forward with an upright stance whilst leaning back, doesn't end well and that's ultimately what I have to go off.
I am pretty much with George on the MW rankings, I think their is a case for dropping the controversial inclusion of Fitzy, and wedge in Tony Zale , best years prob not seen because of the war, for sure a young Zale was a very formidable fighter, tough, fearless, and an ATG body puncher, also throw a bone to Cerdan maybe, didnt reign for long , but overall record was up with the best surely, ties with Carpentier as the best European for me, just throwing it out there guys.
Cerdan is a big no for me. As for Zale, so hard to say. As you say his best years were gone, from 1940 he was a real force. But enough of a force to crack my top ten. I would hold out for now, but good shout.
#5 is very high for Burley. Spots 7-10 for me do not belong where they are. Maybe Spinks makes the tail end. Gerb at #4 is fine, if you watched him PM me.
Carpienter and Cerdan was the best two European boxers? Ahead of Jimmy Wilde? Ted Kid Lewis? Freddie Welsh? No case whatsoever.
1.Greb 2.Hagler 3.Monzon 4. Robinson 5.Fitz 6. Ketchel 7. Tiger 8. Steele 9. R Jones 10. Hopkins GGG, Lamotta, Cerdan, Zale
Burley for me was like Roy Jones but better. Atleast as a MW anyways. Spinks wasn't a MW. Gibbons I'm contemplating, but I think he beats a lot of MW fighters. As for Greb, I've only seen the first 5 rounds of the Tunney fight, it's on YouTube.
1. Hagler 2. Monzon 3. Greb 4. SRR 5. Hopkins 6. Walker 7. Fitzimmons 8. Ketchel 9. Burley 10. Cerdan