Decade v Decade - 20s v 50s

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Boilermaker, May 9, 2010.


  1. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Very difficult.

    Dempsey v Marciano

    Very difficult. Dempsey is going to score on Rocky and who is really surviving that? On the other hand, who can beat back Rocky? I think it is the case that if Marciano can survive Dempsey's punches, Marciano will break Dempsey rather than vice versa, forcing his fight plan upon him to out-fight him down a brutal stretch. But how to know how the Dempsey hands and the Marciano crouch/phone-box combo would really mesh? I'm going to plump for Marciano at this time to survive some horrible early moments and a bad cut to take a very very close decision after the 15 most horrific rounds in ring history

    Marciano SD Dempsey


    Gene Tunney v Archie Moore

    Another horrible fight. The master of strategy versus the master tactician with another difficult mesh of styles. Anyone who thinks they have broken this down properly without providing 3,000 word of evidence is deluding themselves...nevertheless, my brief take.

    Tunney's out-boxing of Dempsey always sticks in the mind. Here, you have a very different dynamic. Heeney flat our refused to chase Tunney. It's notable that whenever Tunney delivers real distance, Heeney just takes control of the centre of the ring and waits. This would be Moore's strategy IMO. Chasing Tunne is folly. Outside, I think Tunney would look to be boss with the jab, and it was a great one, and he might actually be just that, but not by much. Moore is so very hard to hit clean even with that punch and his own jab is excellent and he may be the best counter-puncher that has ever breathed...so I think they share success at this distance. Inside, there's another odd dynamic that is tough to read, but I guess that Moore will thrive here based upon superior tactical (as opposed to strategic) adaption. I think as the fight wares on, Tunney will try to stay out more and more looking to tie Moore up on the inside like he would against a heavy. I see Moore having good success with sneaky right hands to the body whilst stifling a lot of Tunney's admired short-arm body attack up close in these circumstances, Tunney tries to distance himself and re-deploys the jab. Scoring in these rounds would be all over the place. The cards could say anything. I think, though, that Moore solves Tunney and scores with a really hard sneak overhand right as Tunney tries to escape torrid in-fighting that sees him visit the canvas. This changes the flavour of the fight just a tad and Moore gets the nod from 2/3 judges for 3/4 of the last rounds to pull out a disputed SD

    Moore SD Tunney.


    Harry Greb v Sugar Ray Robinson

    :bolt



    Walker v Gavilan

    I get into trouble sometimes on the forum for defining Walker's style as brawling. I'm going to court that trouble again, because that's just as I see it. Nobody out brawls the keed for me. Gavilan sneaks, toughs, counters, feints, punches and endures his way to a suprisingly wide decision. Before anyone starts, I had both men on my all time head to head welters list.

    Gavilan UD Walker


    lLeonard v Carter

    I'm a huge Carter fan. Love him. He's a great fighter in my view, a cracking in-fighter with wonderful punch selection and as tough as they come. His battle with Bassett over 10 rounds is one of my favourite fights to watch. But he doesn't have enough for Leonard. Leonard stays out of trouble with that uncanny sense for his man's movements and times him to death, Carter's adaption never enough to get him safe. Leoanrd wins a decision at a shocking canter by keeping the fight on the outside, loading up brutally in the middle rounds before easing off just a bit to canter home.

    Leonard UD Carter


    Saddler v Dundee

    As Saddler's series with Pep showed, if you don't have great power you have trouble no matter how good you are. I think Saddler brutalises Dundee pretty badly, the referee saving him at the end of the 13th for a surprising stoppage.

    Sadler TKO13 Dundee


    Pete Herman v Jimmy Carruthers

    This is a sick fight. This could be as horrible as the Rocky-Jack bought. Obviously any kind of in depth analysis is tough but I guess I'll go with Herman to shade the in-fighting and take a disgusting decision that sees boxing banned in the state of New York.

    Herman UD15 Carruthers


    Wilde v Perez

    Every now and again you get a fighter dead wrong, and maybe i've done that with Wilde, but I think he gets overated head to head. I pick Perez to out-smart and sting him throughout, especially with the jab which I think would be the difference between them. Perez by decision that feels wide but reads short.

    Perez UD15 Perez
     
  2. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    great breakdown mcgrain

    I don't know about this. Archie had a very good jab. It was long too(around 76" same as tunney's 77"). Archie arguably beat the man(harold johnson) with the best jab in the history of the division, so Archie is used to dealing with jabs. Even 6'3 80" Valdes had a good jab, Archie beat him twice. Watch the way Archie outjabs Nino in that short youtube clip.
     
  3. OLD FOGEY

    OLD FOGEY Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Good evaluation. I think very highly of Tunney but he never faced a boxer-puncher in the same class as Moore while Moore did handle an excellent boxer-puncher in Johnson. I was very tentative in my pick and I am happy someone defended Moore in this matchup.

    I would be interested in what you think of the other matchups.
     
  4. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Fair enough; note that I do attatch the caveat that he wouldn't have it all his own way out there due to Archie's own jab and counter-punching ability.
     
  5. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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  6. OLD FOGEY

    OLD FOGEY Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    1. I don't get the same totals for Gavilan-Walker--seems Gavilan is about even. Am I just wrong.

    2. I nominate the 1900's versus the 1930's

    Heavyweight--Louis vs Johnson (or Jeffries)

    Lightheavy--Lewis vs Fitzsimmons

    Middle--Steele (or several others) vs Ketchel

    Welter--Ross vs Walcott

    Light--Canzoneri vs Gans

    Feather--Armstrong vs McGovern

    Bantam--Panama Al Brown vs Frankie Neil

    Fly--void-no flyweight division in 1900's
     
  7. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Sorry, You are correct, Kid Gavilan was 3-3 at the last count, and turning this into a great contest.
     
  8. sugarsean

    sugarsean Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Marciano KO 9 of Dempsey
    Moore UD over Tunney
    Robinson UD over Greb
    Gavilan UD over Walker
    Saddler over Dundee
     
  9. PetethePrince

    PetethePrince Slick & Redheaded Full Member

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    Greb over SRR makes me laugh.
     
  10. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Why?
     
  11. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Heavy 4-6 50s Marciano(50s) over Dempsey
    Light Heavy 7-4 20s Tunney over Moore
    Middle 8-1 Greb over Robinson
    Welter 6-4 Gavilan(50s) over Walker
    Lightweight 9-0 Leonard over Carter
    Featherweight 9-0 Saddler over Dundee
    Bantam 7-1 Herman over Carruthers/Ortiz
    Fly 5-3 Wilde over Perez

    Total Score: 20s 6 50s 2


    Latest count has the 20s comfortably in front, but Dempsey vs Marciano is still a great close match, Galivan v Walker, also is very close.

    Archie Moore does seem to be coming back, also, thanks to some good points that Suzy Q made. Polls close in a day or two.
     
  12. teeto

    teeto Obsessed with Boxing banned

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    Heavy=Jack Dempsey
    Light Heavy= Gene Tunney
    Middleweight= Harry Greb
    Welterweight= Mickey Walker
    Lightweight= Benny Leonard
    Featherweight= Johnny Dundee
    Bantamweight= Pete Herman
    Flyweight= Jimmy Wilde

    And the opponents will be the 1950s

    Heavy = Rocky Marciano
    Light Heavy = Archie Moore
    Middleweight = Ray Robinson
    Welterweight = Kid Gavilan
    Lightweight = Jimmy Carter
    Featherweight = Sandy Saddler
    Bantamweight = Jimmy Carruthers
    Flyweight = Pascal Perez

    I've got-

    Marciano
    Tunney
    Robinson
    Gavilan
    Leonard
    Saddler
    Herman
    Perez

    Okay, comments-
    Picking Tunney killed me. I don't think Moore has a nightmare with him. Tunney was a rugged man, and he could keep pressure on without marauding, like against Carpentier, this was his style from what i understand, not the pure boxing methods used against Dempsey, and even if he used that tactic, Moore is great at countering the boxeing types. Anyway i sold out and went with my gut feeling in picking Tunney in the end. The rest of the picks were basically difficult just because many of them are of similar level of greatness that are pitted against one another.
     
  13. itrymariti

    itrymariti CaƱas! Full Member

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    I was just about to post the same thing. :patsch
     
  14. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Marciano, Tunney, Greb, Walker, Leonard, Carter, Carruthers, Wilde.

    Looks like the 20s are comfortably through to the next round.
     
  15. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Heavy 4-8 50s Marciano(50s) over Dempsey
    Light Heavy 9-4 20s Tunney over Moore
    Middle 9-2 Greb over Robinson
    Welter 7-5 Gavilan(50s) over Walker
    Lightweight 11-0 Leonard over Carter
    Featherweight 11-0 Saddler over Dundee
    Bantam 7-2 Herman over Carruthers/Ortiz
    Fly 6-5 Wilde over Perez

    Total Score: 20s 6 50s 2

    A very solid win to the 20s. Greb over Robinson is an upset for mine. Leonard and Saddler were as dominant as anyone has been. And even the two fights that the 20s lost, they were right in them. They were definitely the surprise packets from the first round.