Very difficult. Dempsey v Marciano Very difficult. Dempsey is going to score on Rocky and who is really surviving that? On the other hand, who can beat back Rocky? I think it is the case that if Marciano can survive Dempsey's punches, Marciano will break Dempsey rather than vice versa, forcing his fight plan upon him to out-fight him down a brutal stretch. But how to know how the Dempsey hands and the Marciano crouch/phone-box combo would really mesh? I'm going to plump for Marciano at this time to survive some horrible early moments and a bad cut to take a very very close decision after the 15 most horrific rounds in ring history Marciano SD Dempsey Gene Tunney v Archie Moore Another horrible fight. The master of strategy versus the master tactician with another difficult mesh of styles. Anyone who thinks they have broken this down properly without providing 3,000 word of evidence is deluding themselves...nevertheless, my brief take. Tunney's out-boxing of Dempsey always sticks in the mind. Here, you have a very different dynamic. Heeney flat our refused to chase Tunney. It's notable that whenever Tunney delivers real distance, Heeney just takes control of the centre of the ring and waits. This would be Moore's strategy IMO. Chasing Tunne is folly. Outside, I think Tunney would look to be boss with the jab, and it was a great one, and he might actually be just that, but not by much. Moore is so very hard to hit clean even with that punch and his own jab is excellent and he may be the best counter-puncher that has ever breathed...so I think they share success at this distance. Inside, there's another odd dynamic that is tough to read, but I guess that Moore will thrive here based upon superior tactical (as opposed to strategic) adaption. I think as the fight wares on, Tunney will try to stay out more and more looking to tie Moore up on the inside like he would against a heavy. I see Moore having good success with sneaky right hands to the body whilst stifling a lot of Tunney's admired short-arm body attack up close in these circumstances, Tunney tries to distance himself and re-deploys the jab. Scoring in these rounds would be all over the place. The cards could say anything. I think, though, that Moore solves Tunney and scores with a really hard sneak overhand right as Tunney tries to escape torrid in-fighting that sees him visit the canvas. This changes the flavour of the fight just a tad and Moore gets the nod from 2/3 judges for 3/4 of the last rounds to pull out a disputed SD Moore SD Tunney. Harry Greb v Sugar Ray Robinson :bolt Walker v Gavilan I get into trouble sometimes on the forum for defining Walker's style as brawling. I'm going to court that trouble again, because that's just as I see it. Nobody out brawls the keed for me. Gavilan sneaks, toughs, counters, feints, punches and endures his way to a suprisingly wide decision. Before anyone starts, I had both men on my all time head to head welters list. Gavilan UD Walker lLeonard v Carter I'm a huge Carter fan. Love him. He's a great fighter in my view, a cracking in-fighter with wonderful punch selection and as tough as they come. His battle with Bassett over 10 rounds is one of my favourite fights to watch. But he doesn't have enough for Leonard. Leonard stays out of trouble with that uncanny sense for his man's movements and times him to death, Carter's adaption never enough to get him safe. Leoanrd wins a decision at a shocking canter by keeping the fight on the outside, loading up brutally in the middle rounds before easing off just a bit to canter home. Leonard UD Carter Saddler v Dundee As Saddler's series with Pep showed, if you don't have great power you have trouble no matter how good you are. I think Saddler brutalises Dundee pretty badly, the referee saving him at the end of the 13th for a surprising stoppage. Sadler TKO13 Dundee Pete Herman v Jimmy Carruthers This is a sick fight. This could be as horrible as the Rocky-Jack bought. Obviously any kind of in depth analysis is tough but I guess I'll go with Herman to shade the in-fighting and take a disgusting decision that sees boxing banned in the state of New York. Herman UD15 Carruthers Wilde v Perez Every now and again you get a fighter dead wrong, and maybe i've done that with Wilde, but I think he gets overated head to head. I pick Perez to out-smart and sting him throughout, especially with the jab which I think would be the difference between them. Perez by decision that feels wide but reads short. Perez UD15 Perez
great breakdown mcgrain I don't know about this. Archie had a very good jab. It was long too(around 76" same as tunney's 77"). Archie arguably beat the man(harold johnson) with the best jab in the history of the division, so Archie is used to dealing with jabs. Even 6'3 80" Valdes had a good jab, Archie beat him twice. Watch the way Archie outjabs Nino in that short youtube clip.
Good evaluation. I think very highly of Tunney but he never faced a boxer-puncher in the same class as Moore while Moore did handle an excellent boxer-puncher in Johnson. I was very tentative in my pick and I am happy someone defended Moore in this matchup. I would be interested in what you think of the other matchups.
Fair enough; note that I do attatch the caveat that he wouldn't have it all his own way out there due to Archie's own jab and counter-punching ability.
Here is a great Archie Moore article I found. He even discusses briefly about his fights with Ezzard Charles. http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...077,6851071&dq=nino+valdes+archie+moore&hl=en
1. I don't get the same totals for Gavilan-Walker--seems Gavilan is about even. Am I just wrong. 2. I nominate the 1900's versus the 1930's Heavyweight--Louis vs Johnson (or Jeffries) Lightheavy--Lewis vs Fitzsimmons Middle--Steele (or several others) vs Ketchel Welter--Ross vs Walcott Light--Canzoneri vs Gans Feather--Armstrong vs McGovern Bantam--Panama Al Brown vs Frankie Neil Fly--void-no flyweight division in 1900's
Sorry, You are correct, Kid Gavilan was 3-3 at the last count, and turning this into a great contest.
Marciano KO 9 of Dempsey Moore UD over Tunney Robinson UD over Greb Gavilan UD over Walker Saddler over Dundee
Heavy 4-6 50s Marciano(50s) over Dempsey Light Heavy 7-4 20s Tunney over Moore Middle 8-1 Greb over Robinson Welter 6-4 Gavilan(50s) over Walker Lightweight 9-0 Leonard over Carter Featherweight 9-0 Saddler over Dundee Bantam 7-1 Herman over Carruthers/Ortiz Fly 5-3 Wilde over Perez Total Score: 20s 6 50s 2 Latest count has the 20s comfortably in front, but Dempsey vs Marciano is still a great close match, Galivan v Walker, also is very close. Archie Moore does seem to be coming back, also, thanks to some good points that Suzy Q made. Polls close in a day or two.
Heavy=Jack Dempsey Light Heavy= Gene Tunney Middleweight= Harry Greb Welterweight= Mickey Walker Lightweight= Benny Leonard Featherweight= Johnny Dundee Bantamweight= Pete Herman Flyweight= Jimmy Wilde And the opponents will be the 1950s Heavy = Rocky Marciano Light Heavy = Archie Moore Middleweight = Ray Robinson Welterweight = Kid Gavilan Lightweight = Jimmy Carter Featherweight = Sandy Saddler Bantamweight = Jimmy Carruthers Flyweight = Pascal Perez I've got- Marciano Tunney Robinson Gavilan Leonard Saddler Herman Perez Okay, comments- Picking Tunney killed me. I don't think Moore has a nightmare with him. Tunney was a rugged man, and he could keep pressure on without marauding, like against Carpentier, this was his style from what i understand, not the pure boxing methods used against Dempsey, and even if he used that tactic, Moore is great at countering the boxeing types. Anyway i sold out and went with my gut feeling in picking Tunney in the end. The rest of the picks were basically difficult just because many of them are of similar level of greatness that are pitted against one another.
Marciano, Tunney, Greb, Walker, Leonard, Carter, Carruthers, Wilde. Looks like the 20s are comfortably through to the next round.
Heavy 4-8 50s Marciano(50s) over Dempsey Light Heavy 9-4 20s Tunney over Moore Middle 9-2 Greb over Robinson Welter 7-5 Gavilan(50s) over Walker Lightweight 11-0 Leonard over Carter Featherweight 11-0 Saddler over Dundee Bantam 7-2 Herman over Carruthers/Ortiz Fly 6-5 Wilde over Perez Total Score: 20s 6 50s 2 A very solid win to the 20s. Greb over Robinson is an upset for mine. Leonard and Saddler were as dominant as anyone has been. And even the two fights that the 20s lost, they were right in them. They were definitely the surprise packets from the first round.