Dempsey doesn't belong in HW top 5's. Perhaps not HW top 10's.

Yes, I am using tennis as a logically analogous example. Please read my analogy with a mind to understand the connection; it is a perfect example of why the kind of expectations you are forwarding here are not reasonable. You know that I am a great Marciano supporter, so give this weight; if Marciano had fought the same schedule Dempsey did, I believe he, too, would have lost at least once to a lesser opponent, much the same way that even the greatest and most consistent tennis champions still lose at least once on a yearly basis to relatively low-ranked opponents. At the very least, it would not be a substantial strike against Marciano's legacy were this to have happened to him in that scenario. As a matter of fact, if you notice, virtually every great champion who fought such a schedule has comparable losses on his ledger. In this match, Dempsey was fighting a charity bout with an injured right hand against an opponent with a difficult style for him having fought 13 times in the last eight months, and lost a disputed four-round decision. There is a reason that none of his contemporaries consider this significant.

Now, supposing, for example, that Dempsey had lost to Meehan for the championship, even if he won it back from him in a rematch, that would be an enormous strike against his legacy. This is why I say that, for example, Lennox Lewis' supporters are not looking at things with a reasonable perspective when they compare Lewis' losses to McCall and Rahman with Dempsey's to Meehan. As it is, sure, Dempsey's legacy is not as good having lost that fight as it would be had he won it, but neither is it some kind of major issue of legitimate contention against his greatness. Let's put it this way: on a scale of 1-100, I'd say Dempsey loses maybe one point for that match.

 

He beat a blind norfolk, and a well past his prime carpenter. not too impressive. Gibbons was 34 and clearly on the downside of his career when he fought gene. Gibbons certainly was not beating the big dangerous heavyweight contenders out there.

 

I would say, though, that the real glitch on Dempsey's record in 1918 isn't the Meehan fight, but the Miske draw.

How did the two stack up as far as activity coming into the fight?

Dempsey fought often in Jan & Feb 1918. On Feb 25, he ko'd Bill Brennan in 6. Dempsey fought twice in March, ko'ing Fred Saddy on March 16 and Tom Riley on March 25. He ko'd both in one. Boxrec has no listed victories for either man. I know that doesn't mean neither had every beaten anyone anywhere at anytime, but it does seem to indicate they were Lamar Clarke opponent level cannon fodder. Dempsey did not fight in April. He had not fought since March 25 when he stepped into the ring against Miske on May 3.

Miske fought a draw with Fred Fulton in January, 1918. He defeated Gus Christie, a fighter with a 56-31-12 listed record who held a previous win over Miske, in February. Miske did not fight in March. On April 8, Miske ko's Tom Cowler in 7. Cowler has a 43-13-2 record with several newspaper wins over Brennan and a ko of Homer Smith. Later that year he defeated Joe Jeannette. On April 12, Miske defeats Gunboat Smith by a 10 round decision. Smith was 75-29-9 at the time. They didn't have ratings back then, but both Cowler and Smith might possibly have made the ratings if they had had them. So Miske after fighting two dangerous opponents in April fights Dempsey on May 3, 1918. The result was a draw.

If anyone fought that fight at a disadvantage, it was Miske.

Between Jan 1, 1918 and the Willard fight, Dempsey fought 27 times, but 10 of them were against men with no listed victories and several others with losing records. I don't think this is all that great. Tunney fought 13 times in 1922, losing to Greb, and fighting a very close fight with Loughran, while beating Levinsky, Kaiser twice, Weinert twice, and Chuck Wiggins. In Jan & Feb of 1923 he adds a ND fight with Renault, beats Wiggins again, and then avenges his loss to Greb in another very close fight. This run is probably as good as Dempsey's.

Louis fought 14 times in 1935. He won them all with 12 knockouts, including two former world champions, Carnera and Baer, a top contender, Levinsky, a former top contender, Uzcudun, plus Perroni, Brown, Ramage, and Toles, fringe contenders of the era. This run is certainly as good, or better, than Dempsey's.

I have to say it is very difficult to say if the schedule is what causes poor performances. Louis fought often in 1935 and won. He was well rested when Schmeling ko'd him. Tunney didn't lose to Greb because he was fighting too often. He lost to Greb because Greb was good. Likewise Dempsey seems to have been reasonably well rested going into the Miske fight. Miske was simply better than his other opponents.

 

But this was a no-decision fight; the draw was a newspaper decision. Though it still counts for something, I think this detracts from its significance relative to a fight with an actual verdict, particularly if the fighters knew they were fighting a no-decision bout.

 

He never did beat the "big dangerous heavyweight contenders" at any point. He was an excellent lightheavy, though, and he did score two wins over Greb.

Norfolk was two years younger than Gibbons and was winning fights leading up to the Gibbons fight, including over men like Battling Siki, Tiger Flowers, and Harry Greb. Nothing to sneeze at.

Carpentier may have seen better days, but, honestly, I don't think he could ever have handled Gibbons. He was also three years younger than Tommy.

Norfolk had lost that eye in 1921, so many of his victories over the top men listed above came with one eye. It seems a bit unfair to pull it up to discredit Gibbons.

 

It is all we have to go on. If we are not going to count those, it becomes almost impossible to judge the fighters of that era at all.

 

Why would Dempsey betold to retreat to a neutral corner? This rule didn't come into effect until he fought Tunney. He'd have every right to ignore it.

 

If anyone is interested I have Dempsey rated 9th on my T10 list:

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Johnson
4. Holmes
5. Marciano
6. Foreman
7. Lewis
8. Liston
9. Dempsey
10. Frazier