Dempsey, Liston, Holyfield, Frazier.

Better resume depth, Better era, more proven against a variety of styles - movers, jabbers, SHWs, punchers - Dempsey/Frazier had kryptonite with certain styles, Holyfield beat every style and man he faced coming into his 37th year, where as the rest were largely done at around 30. Much better longevity, fighting ranked HWs from '88-08 and being elite from '88-'99. IMO clearly the best H2H, if you can beat Tyson you can beat Dempsey/Frazier, if you can beat Bowe you can beat Liston

 

There's Evander Holyfield,then there's everybody else.



As for "who beats who" - I'd favour him over any of em'.


Liston would beat Frazier and Dempsey,though whether Frazier would step up against such a puncher,and whether Dempsey would want to step into the ring with a man who was about as black as black could be,is another matter.

 

1. Yea I'd go with Wills at least been on par resume wise over that period. Greb isn't far off with wins over better versions (or more dominating wins) of Miske/Brennan/Gibbons/Meehan

2. But Frazier hadn't really stepped up at this stage and he may have been too inexperienced. Just because he eventually beat Ellis and Ali, doesn't mean he would have beat Ali circa '68-'69 and he certainly hadn't earnt premier status at that stage by beating Matthis. You're giving him retrospective status, which he may not have yet been good enough to do at that time. It's nearly like saying 'Holyfield was the premier HW from 88 onwards because he eventually beat Douglas in '91 and Tyson in '96'. He might have been but he hadn't proven it at the time and may not have been ready same as Frazier, might not have been ready for Ali from 67-69

 

H2H is the only way I rank. With that said-

Holyfield
Frazier
Liston
Dempsey... but I almost put Dempsey over Liston.

 

1. Its whether you prefer Langford, Mcvey, Jeanette (all old but Wills beat younger versions too), Tate (beat Langford before Fulton did), Jeff Clark, Fulton, Denver Ed Martin (old), Norfolk

Dempsey's list: Willard (old innactive), Firpo, Gibbons, Brannan, Miske (drew with prime version, beat dying version), Gunboat Smith (1-1)

2. I think the best time to fight would be 1919-1920 when both were at their peak and Wills was the clear no1 contender. 1926 would see Wills as a 37yo, just about to lose to Sharkey (although I think Sharkey may well have edged Dempsey if he didn't get low blowed)

3. Well he wasn't highest ranked in the WBA, the Ring magazine wasn't thought of nearly as highly as some consider it now, he didn't pull off a win over a top4 opponent until Quarry, didn't pull off a win over a top3 opponent until Ellis (Ali's sparring partner ). Frazier's run from 66-71 is good, but he wasn't numero uno until '71, no doubt

 

Wills was a #1 contender and dempsey did sign to fight him. greb was never a #1 contender and there wasnt much call for greb as a chalenger. dempsey not fighting greb is like joe louis not fighting melio bettina, no big deal. I would like both fights to have happeded but there is no ducking going on, not like you would think. evander never fought razor ruddock or oliver mccall, but did he have to?

with ali in exile, If one were to ask (at that time) who a fighter had to beat from 1967 onwards to be considered the best HW in the world you would have to say chuvalo, quarry, ellis, bonnavena plus ali if he ever came back. Joe frazier did all this with bells on.

 

Holyfeild was indeed into world level opponenents very quick, he had fewer build up fights than many other champions but you cannot say he could deal with any style any better than the other 3! Dempsey had hundreds of fights. As an ex-fighter In 1931 he fought 34 times in 4months scoring many genuine KOs, they were not strickly exhibitions.


Holyfeild was truly great and scored some great wins in key fights but was always considered an over achiever because he was never seen as being a great fighter at that time. He was not taken seriously at HW until he beat bowe, after what now looks like his most dominant period -only to flunk the moorer fight!

People were reminded that evander must have been a great fighter in his day just because he beat Tyson but this was a belated recognition of his greatness. even at that moment fans did not know if evander was the best fighter in the world because he had not fought Lewis yet.

The other 3fighters in this discussion were all recognised as "the best HW in the world" when they had their best spell on top of the world.

 

Head to head:
Dempsey
Holyfield
Liston
Frazier



Resume:
Holyfield
Dempsey
Frazier
Liston

 

:good

 

Contrariness is the thread that ties everything together. In this case, people are seriously underrating Dempsey and his run to the title.

Absolutely.

 

So the champ not facing his best challengers hurts their legacy, not his?:huh You're a good poster, but the way you contort yourself to make excuses for Dempsey really hurts your credibility.