Dempsey, Liston, Holyfield, Frazier.

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by lufcrazy, Aug 19, 2011.


  1. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Tyson and Frazier both had 3-4 years during which they clearly established themselves as the dominant force in the division. Holy and Dempsey never did to that extent, but Holy's longevity clearly elevates him above Dempsey. Therefore, I'd have Holy as the first among these four and Dempsey as the last. Frazier and Tyson are trickier to choose between.
     
  2. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    no, it doesn't hurt either legacy.

    what i'm saying, to word it better, is that dempsey was considered the top dog right? so if someone wants to challenge his status the onus is on them to challenge it (like vitali today, if he wants to show he's better than wlad he has to either fight better opposition or fight wlad himself).

    i have no interest in defending, excusing or attacking dempsey. What he's done he's done, it's all in the histroy books and I don't care to change anyones views on the man.

    My view is that from 1918-1923 he was the premiere fighter and he was dominant against the opposition he faced. the reason them two were brought up is because PP believes they have a case for being the premiere fighter. I responded by saying the onus is on them to prove it.

    for example, in 96 Tyson never fought foreman but was clearly usurping his claim to the throne. in 97 Holyfield never fought briggs but by then noone cared about the lineage.

    If you look at my rankings you see I only have him 3rd in this group (which makes him 11th or 12th on my full list I think LARJHFLTHF, ye number 11)
     
  3. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    :lol::lol::lol: the way you covertly change liston into tyson hurts your credibility. you are a good poster though :good
     
  4. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    fair enough.

    I dunno, I see Liston as one of the absolute elite H2H heavyweights.
     
  5. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    It's about who beat the better fighters. Did Dempsey beat the better fighter during this period? Perhaps, but it's not that clear cut. When it comes to Frazier and Tyson, they had 3-4 years where no one can be held up to their standard. Ali also beat Bonavena, Quarry and Ellis, but he was well beaten by Frazier. Tyson beat everyone in the late 80's bar perhaps 'Spoon and Dokes, but 'Spoon was beaten by guys that Tyson comfortable beat and neither had nearly the same kind of wins that Tyson had.

    Dempsey was never a stand-out in that manner. Had he beaten Greb and Wills, he would have been, though.
     
  6. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    I don't rate dempsey as great as tyson nor frazier. nor do i rate him as dominant :huh

    I think your whole post is just agreeing with something I've already said.
     
  7. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    :lol: I was out skating there for a while.

    Hmm. Nah, Liston must be behind Frazier, I suppose. Not by much, though. And he's ahead of Dempsey, by virtue of clearly being the best in the division for some 3-4 years. I can see a case of having Dempsey ahead of him perhaps, though. It's thin, but it can be made.
     
  8. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Ok. Then we're on the same wavelength there at least.
     
  9. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    yeah I have it

    holy
    frazier
    demps
    liston.
     
  10. TheGreatA

    TheGreatA Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I like Melio Bettina and all but let us not compare him to Harry Greb. Better comparison, the name Billy Conn ring a bell? And even then Greb had a deeper heavyweight resume.
     
  11. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Im not saying bettina is comparable to greb but I am saying bettina, like greb, was a fighter from another divison rated at HW, who the champion never got round to fighting. nobody says anything about bettina not geting a shot because it was not a big deal. why is it a big deal dempsey didnt get around to greb, its not like greb was ever his #1 contender?

    Conn did make it to #1 contender and he was curent LH champ. Louis fought conn, just like dempsey fought carpentier.
     
  12. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    yeah I still don't see the clamour for a dempsey-greb fight being there.

    was it ever perceived in the media that he was ducking greb?
     
  13. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Basically nobody was Dempsey's #1 contender for huge swathes because he refused to fight his #1 contender.

    Pointing out that a guy didn't deserve a fight because he was never #1 is literally the rock bottom of the pro-Dempsey argument. How could he possibly be #1 when the #1 never got a shot and didn't lose?!
     
  14. TheGreatA

    TheGreatA Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Louis enlisted to the army at the time Bettina was a contender. Dempsey enlisted as a Hollywood celebrity. Bit of a difference there.

    It was very smart on Carpentier's part not to put his title on the line against Greb. Good thing he was taking on welterweights like Ted 'Kid' Lewis too instead of ranked heavyweights like Billy Miske, Bill Brennan, not to mention what Tunney, Loughran and Gibbons did to him later on. I guess the big DQ win over Gunboat Smith 7 years previous was enough to convince Dempsey to give him a shot instead of more deserving challengers.

    To be honest, I'm tired of picking apart Dempsey's heavyweight record because it is too easy a feat. It cannot be helped though when comparisons like this are made.
     
  15. brando18b4h

    brando18b4h Active Member Full Member

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    Frazier
    Dempsey
    Holyfield
    Liston