Dempsey, Liston, Holyfield, Frazier.

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by lufcrazy, Aug 19, 2011.


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  1. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    WILLARD AND FIRPO ARE BOTH CONFIDENT; Each Is Sure of Winning Bout to Determine Which Shall Challenge Dempsey.

    In advance of their bout to determine which shall have the privilege of challenging Jack Dempsey for the world's heavyweight championship, Jess Willard and Luis Angel Kirpo are very confident. If confidence counts for anything, they both would win. The men who have been supervising their training are equally sanguine.

    New York Times

    Incidentaly, the Willard Firpo fight drew a much bigger gate than the recent Dempsey Gibbons bout and this was commented upon in the media.
     
    janitor, Sep 4, 2011
    janitor, Sep 4, 2011
    #301
  2. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    says it all really

    today the media demand that floyd fights pac but if he went on to fight berto next you'd have to concede berto earned his shot.
     
    lufcrazy, Sep 4, 2011
    lufcrazy, Sep 4, 2011
    #302
  3. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    around this time wills was fighting bill Tate, dempseys sparring partner, in front of 3000 or so fans in a barn, I think it was a draw..it was not inspiring anyone.

    IMO the paper reading fans were sold on the winner of the "battle of the giants" as the next chalenger.
     
    choklab, Sep 4, 2011
    choklab, Sep 4, 2011
    #303
  4. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    I did :good
     
    lufcrazy, Sep 4, 2011
    lufcrazy, Sep 4, 2011
    #304
  5. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    to be fair to those arguing against Firpo's standing, a couple of papaers express surprize that he had risen to prominence over such a short period.

    He seems to have gone from being a nobody to a half million dollar draw verry quickly.
     
    janitor, Sep 4, 2011
    janitor, Sep 4, 2011
    #305
  6. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    not to mention it was against him who Wills had to be matched to regain his top ranking.

    I think it's apparent that whilst Wills was most consistently the top contender, there are certain periods when he fell from the top spot and this could well be one of them.
     
    lufcrazy, Sep 4, 2011
    lufcrazy, Sep 4, 2011
    #306
  7. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    I think wills deserved a shot about 1917-1919 but he kind of lost luster after that. 1917-1919 was harrys window but fairly or unfairly dempsey outshone him. After that wills was done as a genuine threat and after 1920-1922 there were much bigger fights to be made.
     
    choklab, Sep 4, 2011
    choklab, Sep 4, 2011
    #307
  8. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    hmmm I think I give him a bot more than that, up until the tate fights I think he was a top contender and then after the firpo fight.
     
    lufcrazy, Sep 4, 2011
    lufcrazy, Sep 4, 2011
    #308
  9. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Wills was almost universally regarded as the best HW in the world during this period, draw with Tate or not. I've tossed up the primary sources over and over again on the forum over the past year.

    The public would have paid a million bucks to watch an inflated ex-flyweight get trounced by Dempsey if the publicity machine told them it was the right fight...and did.

    A year before Firpo was absolutely nowhere in the division. Willard and Brennan were ahead of him in the pecking order, to be fair, but they'd also been all but eliminated in the interim, Brennan had been all but shut out by ****ing Floyd Johnson :lol: The same man Willard had managed to beat for his first win in four years.

    The public were sold, alrite.
     
    McGrain, Sep 4, 2011
    McGrain, Sep 4, 2011
    #309
  10. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Yeah, and that's fine. Fighting your biggest draw is fine. But when you are ALWAYS making excuses/explaining why your fighter has fought such and such, you know there is a problem.

    Firpo was inflated, and as an aside, quite possibly the least skilled fighter ever to fight for the world heavyweight title.

    Possibly any title.
     
    McGrain, Sep 4, 2011
    McGrain, Sep 4, 2011
    #310
  11. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    No, he didn't. He was still the fighter most people seemed to want to see in the ring with Jack.

    Why does the #1 contender have to outshite the champion???

    :lol: where do you get this stuff?
     
    McGrain, Sep 4, 2011
    McGrain, Sep 4, 2011
    #311
  12. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    If Firpo had beaten Wills then this is a reasonable analogy.

    But beating an inactive Willard proves what? It would be a lot like the press conceeding Berto the opportunity to fight Pacquiao based upon his beating of Marquez.
     
    McGrain, Sep 4, 2011
    McGrain, Sep 4, 2011
    #312
  13. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    more like based upon his beating of zaveck.
     
    lufcrazy, Sep 4, 2011
    lufcrazy, Sep 4, 2011
    #313
  14. My2Sense

    My2Sense Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    But just because there was another contender who was better and/or more deserving of a title shot, doesn't make Firpo any less of a fighter in and of himself. He still was a legit top 2 or 3 contender however you dice it, and he had earned a shot by winning a tourney specifically designed to produce a new leading challenger after the NY Commission had blocked the Dempsey-Wills fight from happening.

    Downplaying Firpo's standing in the division just because Wills was better would be like arguing Jimmy Ellis wasn't a top HW in '69 just because Frazier was better.

    If anything, Willard's comeback win over a prospect like Johnson means he was still a legit contender himself when Firpo beat him. If you wanted, you could just as well nitpick at Wills' wins over faded contenders/HOFers and Dempsey leftovers, which is what put him in line for a shot at the title in the first place.

    Again, Jimmy Ellis' rise toward the top of the division in '69 was no less "fast" and surprising as Firpo's - did that make his fight with Frazier any less "big" or meaningful?
     
    My2Sense, Sep 4, 2011
    My2Sense, Sep 4, 2011
    #314
  15. My2Sense

    My2Sense Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Come on, don't be absurd. He looks no less "skilled" than Max Baer, who was world champ and legit HOFer.

    [yt]gk-7ic9OCKY[/yt]

    [yt]5uj7oBXwwMo[/yt]
     
    My2Sense, Sep 4, 2011
    My2Sense, Sep 4, 2011
    #315
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