Dempsey, Liston, Holyfield, Frazier.

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by lufcrazy, Aug 19, 2011.


  1. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    good stuff!

    so overall hw greatness you'd say

    holy
    frazier
    liston
    dempsey?

    the one main thing I'd question above all others, how come you rate dempsey's legacy so low?
     
  2. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

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    Not sure why you have Holy's dominance so low, he was undefeated until the age of 30 and he beat everyone he faced coming into his 37th birthday. He was 3:2 against the best 2 he faced near his prime (Tyson/Bowe), Dempsey was 1:2 against the best he faced (Tunney/Sharkey), Frazier was 1:4 against the best he faced (Ali/Foreman) and Liston was 2:2 against the best he faced (Ali/Patterson)
     
  3. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    in the order of my ATg list I have it:
    #4 Dempsey
    #8 holyfeild
    #13 liston
    #18 frazier

    However, I have started to believe if it is just this bunch I would swap Liston and frazier around on the basis of the fact that until both were finished as champion Frazier did more against better fighters. Taking all champions into account I put liston higher than joe simply because he beat a reigning champ by KO.

    The 1959-63' era that Liston came along in the fighters to beat were Ingo, Patterson, machen, folley and he did this. missing out only ingo. The period is known as the Patterson-ingo-liston era.

    The 1967-73' era that Frazier came along the fighters to beat were quarry, ellis, chuvalo, bonnavena and Ali. Fazier got the whole set! This period is known as "ali's exile years"

    The 1918-1927 era that Dempsey came along in the fighters to beat were the old guard of the white hope era (gunboat, morris, fulton, willard) harry wills, bill brennan and the bigger ticket sellers like carpentier, Firpo, Tunny and sharkey. even taking out the 3 year "lost weekend"that he had, dempsey still only missed out wills, almost knocked out Tunney and KOd sharkey. This period is known as "the jack dempsey era"

    The 1988-99 era Holyfeild came along the fighters to beat were Tyson, douglas, Bowe, Lewis, Moorer, Foreman. Holyfeild missed nobody out among the fighters who mattered but the era is divided. Not only did he not beat all of them at the right time, he lost to moorer and Lewis. there is a case for 1990-94 going down as either "Holyfeild-bowe era" or "the tyson in jail era". However, the later half of evander's peak will go down as the "Lennox lewis era" since from 1997-03' he eclipsed Holyfeild.
     
  4. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    man you have to accept it, holy isn't known for being a dominant force in the ring!
     
  5. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    agree with most apart from this bit.

    I'd say Holy's era is from 90-94...97-99 Lewis took over from the "draw" onwards
     
  6. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

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    Yet he's far more dominant than Frazier/Dempsey/Liston

    For some reason some people rank continually losing to the fighter that beat you more dominant than avenging that loss :nut
     
  7. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    it's more about explosiveness and how you're perceived.

    Liston, Dempsey, Frazier were viewed as animals who could kill a man.

    For a long time Holy was viewed as a great fighter doing better than he should edging wars, he was never a fearsome beats until the Tyson fight, but even after destroying moorer there was the looming fear of his age catching up with him.

    his past prime exploits are top notch however, after losing to Lewis he could have retired but he beat ruiz and Rahman and didn't lose badly until the Byrd fight.
     
  8. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

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    Yet him and his management ducked Greb/Wills, lost the series v Meeehan, went 50-50 v Prime Miske, even a shot Johnson would have been better than who he actually faced
     
  9. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

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    Perception is pretty irrevelant, especially when you look at the difference in class, Holyfield had far tougher opposition. He didn't lose until the age of 30 (unlike the other 3) and beat everyone he faced until the age of 37. None of the others come close. I'm sure Liston/Dempsey looked great aginst no marks, but that's pretty much irrelevant

    BTW his shoulder was clearly torn against Byrd
     
  10. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    yes his resume is very good but you wouldn't all him a dominant force would you?

    he smashed an out of shape douglas, won a war with cooper, outpointed two dinosaurs, lost then won a war with bowe, lost a debatable fight with moorer,. this is his prime championship years from 90-94.

    he then did enough to stay relevant but not enough to make any waves until the ~tyson fight who he knocked out, forced him to ***** out and then destroyed Moorer. 96-97 maybe he was dominant but then he lost his fights with Lewis, was declared shot and went win-lose for a bit.

    well then toney was the first man to beat him badly.


    but anyways the crux of it is, you said the others looked great against lesser opposition, that may be the case but it's still the truth. the others dominated their opponents. once holy became champ he was never perceived as dominant. as the best, yes, but not as dominant.
     
  11. Son of Gaul

    Son of Gaul Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I agree with this but I penalize obvious steroid abusers pretty harshly. He is #1 at Cruiserweight p4p and h2h but is out of my HW top 20 as he was obviously juicing after the first Bowe fight.
     
  12. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    But the period was known as "the jack dempsey era" not just by mainstream sports fans but the hardcore boxing fraternity. unlike liston, holyfeild and frazier, Dempsey's greatness was not disputed by those that were there.

    The era was not known as "the miske era", "the meehan era" or "greb/wills era".

    Greb was a great fighter, maybe a fight could have been made but the clamour for a firpo bout, a fighter who was the next biggest draw in all of boxing after dempsey eclipsed both harrys. Dempsey was seen as the giant killer, after the carpentier fight only fights worth half as much were being considered. greb, rightly or wrongly was not considered as a HW fighter to beat at that time. wills was but he blew a big fight with firpo, and dempsey did actually sign to fight him
     
  13. Son of Gaul

    Son of Gaul Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    '67-'71 Frazier was a man on a mission and was not to be denied. Frazier would vaporize Dempsey somewhere in the mid rounds and would win a close decision over the Holyfield from the first Bowe fight(pre-steroids). Peak Liston would present a few challenges however...namely the uppercut and the jab. Liston's famous jab wouldn't be a problem as Smokin' Joe was a master slipper at his peak but the uppercut would be a problem.
     
  14. Son of Gaul

    Son of Gaul Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    With all due respect...:wtf.

    Frazier beat a near peak Ali and destroyed Ellis, Bonavena, Quarry, Chuvalo, Foster and Mathis(don't forget about a past it Machen)...all top 50 HW except Foster who is the best LHW in history...IMO.
     
  15. bodhi

    bodhi Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Holyfield
    Frazier
    Liston
    Dempsey