Dempsey - Louis prime for prime

First of all Bloss, I hope you don't object too strongly to my removal of your dancing emoticon. (Michael Jackson has given me nightmares since I was a kid. I want to see Jerko in the next installment of "Celebrity Boxing" on FOX against Danny Bonaduce.:bbb:! The crux of this whole discussion for me is how the Dempsey of Toledo would have done against the Joe Louis who demolished Max Baer and broke Godoy's face in their rematch. Our views on this question are solidly entrenched, and being hashed out for the consideration of undecided others reading this.

Now, I have to admit that I'm rather peeved at ole' Doc Kearns for making his ridiculous one round knockout bet, because we might have seen a peak Dempsey perform for a more extended period of time, in a more calculating manner against Willard, instead of the frenetic latter half of round one he was suddenly compelled to produce.

Big Jess, was like Tex Cobb and George Chuvalo, tough enough to extend first rate competition. Without such rugged individuals, the peak potential of many greats would be reduced to mere speculation. Still, Willard was tough enough to last longer than Fred Fulton's several seconds, and nobody else in boxing at that time might have lasted so long against the beast Dempsey was on that particular day.

Yeah, and the way boxing is going, it might revert to the four round format of Dempsey's California days. (In which case Tyson, Foreman, Lyle, Shavers and Cooney will all be making comebacks. But if four rounds becomes the legal time limit again, at least we'll see them compete more often!)

 

I'd really like to offer you an emoticon of an image that doesn't cause you to wake up screeming in the middle of the night with your sheets soaking wet. Unfortunately, the selection is slim, therefore Michael will have to stay.

:mj

 

Which is about the only positive thing he said about a modern fighter. In no way does it undo his ridiculously biased top10 lists.

That is not superior. Memory is not very trustworthy; film is.

How is Conn not as tough as Carpentier? Are you trying to suggest that Carpentier (who hurt Dempsey too, by the way) is in any way superior to Conn other than power? Which is pretty irrelevant anyway, since he was a lightheavyweight. Lightheavyweights rarely have the power to impact real heavyweights unless their power is off the charts, which is not the case with Carpentier.

The war duty is a silly argument. Riddick Bowe didn't last 2 days at the Marine corps but his heart inside the ring is as proven as any in history, considering the tremendous beatings he took from Golota without quitting.
And if you want to make the argument, Dempsey ducked his duty of WWI.

Well he was a natural lightheavyweight who bulked up a bit so i'd say the 25lbs is a bit exxagarated.

I have not seen all rounds of Farr-Louis, but i read that Louis only lost 2 or 3 rounds.

:nut

Right, but that's the problem. They don't match closely. Johnson a master boxer who keeps distance and uses his jab? Tunney only landing 3 or 4 clean punches on Dempsey in 20 rounds? Willard in terrific shape?
These are all statements from those times and completely incorrect. Hey, can't blame them, they probably didn't know that footage and other historical facts would be available so easy in the future, so why not lie a little to enhance your status?

Fair enough.

 

that's fine. But other champions also failed to meet some challengers. I honestly think u have done the Wills debate to death, but if u can't realise how many lifes could have been possibly lost due to race riots, then i don't know what to say. Bottom line though is Wills's leagacy is also affected by it. I don't know if Wills was trying to save face or not but maybe he was telling the truth. We atleast have enough evidence that Dempsey, atleast twice, tried to arrange this fight, even personally writing articles in the newspaper for a promoter to come up with the fight. Those are not the signs of ducking.

Here are some questions to ask about Dempsey:

Fine

2. Was he an active champion who defended his title often? No

If u r talking about historical significance, then he was the first one to produce the million dollar gate, and det the record for 25 first round knockouts,l the highest by any heavyweight champion. Yes there were alot of weak fighters among these knockouts but also ranked fighters among those 25 first round knockouts. And while many other heavyweights also fought alot of average opponents, no other all time great champion had as many knockouts as Dempsey, only Tyson comes close.

yeah and Dempsey was the only heavyweight champion who failed to meet some good challengers, yet when Wills refuses to meet Tunney , or if Holmes fails to meet Coetzee and Thomas, or something like that then it's acceptable.:good

 

Actually, it wasn't considered acceptable. In fact, I already mentioned earlier that Holmes was given holy hell for not fighting Greg Page. At least he was held accountable however, be having his title stripped. nobody ever took Dempsey's belt away for failure to meet a mandatory challenge.

At any rate, these debates are interesting and keep the forum exciting. Think of how boring it would be if we all agreed.

 

i can agree with that :good

 

I want to say Louis but I can't help remembering the Galento fight. Tony decked Joe and definitely hurt him as well and Galento had no hand speed, no foot speed and almost no boxing ability as well. He was a tough portly barroom brawler with a good left hook and that's it. I can't help but think that Dempsey, who was leagues above Galento(and 3xfaster) would win. I'm not saying that it would be a walk in the park by any means but I think style-wise it's a bad matchup for Joe. I'd pick Dempsey but I would'nt bet the farm on it.

 

Why are some of you always coming with such strange comparisons? Fireman Jim Flynn beat Dempsey also by 1st round- KO, should we now favour a fighter like Tony Ross, who beat the evil Fireman, to beat Dempsey too? Get what I mean? I favour Louis clearly, I predict a midround- KO...

 

Dive.

 

Be kind of hard to bet on Dempsey, unless you really had money to burn.

 

I read an article in which Louis rates Dempsey as the greatest.

 

It would be a great match up. A tempo fighter ( Louis ) vs an helter skelter anti tempo fighter ( Dempsey ).

I think Dempsey had a good style match up here, as he is more aggressive, faster on his feet in a 360 degree direction to get the angles and his balance when throwing or avoiding punches, a bit harder to hit, and in my opinion had the better chin.

Louis threw textbook punches, but he had a low guard, average shuffling feet, and said his one weakness was he hated to be crowded. Such a fighter will have some major problems vs Dempsey. Godoy mauled Louis in the first fight and had no issues getting the better of the in-fighting or bulling Louis to the ropes. Godoy could not hit very hard. Dempsey could.

Best guess is Dempsey wins this fantasy fight in early to mid rounds, though one good right hand from Louis could change his fortunes.

 

Much as it pains me ,I find myself in complete agreement ,Dempsey inside 2. Once inside Jack goes to work before Louis gets into his rythmn,got to watch those uppercuts though.

 

I would pick Louis hear.

The reason?

Dempsey is going to be coming forward and Louis will be looking to use his forward momentum against him. This puts Dempsey in a verry dangerous position.

Having said that I would not be surprized at all if Dempsey overwealmed him. This is honestly an anything can happen fight.

Another important factor is what fight plan each guy implements.

If I was in Louis's corner I would tell him not to take a step forward and to back up just enough to keep Dempsey walking into his combos.

I would advise Dempsey to make good use of lateral movment to set up counters on Louis and then switch his attack to the inside when he had him hurt.

 

You mean overwhelmed asin knocked out early? I don't think that will happen. Louis is just too much of a skilled, talented and fast handed veteran for that.