Dempsey - Louis prime for prime

I think janitor initially picked Louis to win the fight. I didn't quite understand the wording of that sentence either, but I don't think he favours Dempsey.

 

No I just mean got to him somewhere down the stretch.

Incidentaly I would not advise Dempsey to go for an early knockout. I think that is precisely the scenario that Louis would be drilled to exploit.

 

Yes I pick Louis to win.

Just with less confidence than some.

 

I expect that Joe would stand up to Jack's Sunday Punch early, just as Gibbons did. Like he did in Shelby, Dempsey would immediately make the mental adjustment to box for the longer haul. Romantic notions aside, this isn't something likely to end in the opening scheduled rounds.

 

A slight correction here- actually, Ray was #1 contender for Louis' title from December of '46 through February of '47, according to the newspaper and RING magazine rankings. And he was in the top 2 contenders for the championship for a solid two-and-a-half years straight. It is also true that while Louis was on tour in 1945-46, Ray was the one fighter he outright refused to meet in an exhibition match, citing the reasoning that Ray "couldn't take it easy"/"didn't know how to fight an exhibition" and one of them would get hurt. Ray's first fight with Charles was originally intended to serve as a title eliminator, but Ray never got the shot, purportedly for not winning convincingly enough.
All that said, had Ray won the rematch with Walcott and maintained his #1 contender status, I have no doubt he would have been given the shot in Walcott's stead. That is, although they seem to have been wary of him, I'm sure that when push came to shove, Louis/his management would have given Ray a shot. It was never a situation like having a pressing, outstanding #1 contender for your championship who holds that position for several years and is never given a shot.

Louis should've lost the first Walcott fight, but it was a courageous move that showed integrity to give him an immediate rematch like that, and a great accomplishment to win it.

Eh, actually, the fight was fairly close on the scorecards before Louis knocked Braddock out. Don't get me wrong- he was clearly in charge at that point and the better man that evening, but one could reasonably say that Louis "struggled" at least a bit, since Braddock did have him down(even for a flash-count) and win at least a couple rounds, keeping it close prior to the knockout.

I lean towards Louis in this match-up, but I think you're being one-sided in this thread and not giving Dempsey his just dues. Fighters with Dempsey's type of style were absolutely capable of giving Louis all kinds of problems, and a guy with Dempsey's kind of power and skill has a serious chance against anyone. Louis didn't have a granite jaw, wasn't as quick on his feet or maneuverable as Dempsey, and could potentially be thrown off his rhythm/gameplan by Dempsey's much more herky-jerkey pacing and unusual angles. That said, I do judge Louis to have been the better overall fighter, and think he probably would be able to overcome these stylistic difficulties if he utilized his jab and straight right and fought a smart strategical match.

 

Incidentaly Ray would have been a far less dangerous challenger for Louis than Walcott.

Louis knocked Ray out in two seperate exhibitions after he retired. It seems that Ray tried to knock Louis out to make a name for himself and came of second best.

 

Fair enough. :good

 

If anyone remembers this quote from Joe Louis, this should settle the question:

"I had a bad weakness I kept hid throughout my career. I didn't like to be crowded, and Marciano always crowded his opponents. That's why I say I could never have beaten him."

If he thought Rocky crowded him what is he gonna do with Dempsey’s teeth in his throat?

Hype Igoe, a famous old-time boxing writer, who saw Jim Jeffries, Bob Fitzsimmons, James Corbett, and Jack Johnson, as well as Dempsey and Louis all in or near their prime years said the following: Dempsey would "have nailed him (Louis) with a left hook and finished him in the first round."
Igoe explains why he would favor Dempsey. "The Toledo Dempsey would have swept away any living man out of his path and the slow starting Louis would never have got started against Jack. He would have been belted so hard and so fast that he would have gone down early. A counter puncher never had a chance against Dempsey.”

Louis was never comfortable against fighters who fought from a crouch and he was vulnerable to right hands. Dempsey fought from a crouch and Dempsey’s right was a lot better than Max Schmeling's.

Louis is an awesome fighter and I DO have him ranked very highly, but this is a stylistic nightmare for him, perhaps the very WORST.

http://coxscorner.tripod.com/jdempsey.html

 

You're being unreasonable to imply that those exhibitions are even anything close to an accurate representation of what would have happened when those two were in or near their primes. Ray was utterly shot and lost to Kid Riviera and John Holman within weeks of those exhibitions. And, also incidentally, I know of at least one other exhibition in that time period in which Ray fought a hard six rounds with Louis, rocked him and took him to what most papers considered would have been a draw.