Dempsey Vs Ali

I might be one of the few who believe that the Dempsey of 1918-23 would have the right style to beat Clay/Ali. This Dempsey was lithe as a panther and with his swiftness, and tremendous lefthook, alongst with
his LOW crouch and bobbing and weaving would have taken away Ali's best asset, his jab...Dempsey unlike Frazier was a two handed banger who did not expend as much energy as Joe frazier did against Ali. And contrary to
most on ESB, Dempsey could box very well as shown in his decisive decision over the great defensive boxer Tommy Gibbons in 1923 in Shelby
over 15 rounds in a broiling hot sun. And remember a Henry Cooper had Ali almost out in their London bout with a left hook. And remember Henry Cooper was a notorious bleeder, whilst Jack Dempsey was NEVER
SERIOUSLY cut, [if at all] in his entire career. NEVER...Dempsey would not be cut whilst his fast vicious left hook would catch Ali time and again, and Dempsey in close was the roughest, toughest infighter EVER...
And I would bet my fortune that the Joe Louis of the Max Baer fight
flattens any version of Clay / Ali. And I think that a young Mike Tyson
had the best chance to beat my 2 favourite heavyweights Dempsey and Louis, because of his handspeed and unusual powerful punching...
It all boils down to styles, and Ali did best against slower moving and
more ponderous punchers, ala Liston [if on the level],and a George Foreman who a prime Joe Louis hit twice as FAST, and Louis never
exhausted himself, because whatever Louis threw he landed...ciao...
P.S. I may be alone in my opinion on ESB, but I am in good company with
a Nat Fleischer, Ray Arcel, and Eddie Futch, and I can live with that...

 

:hi:

bb, I'm glad someone on ESB, agrees with me on this subject...
One caveat though bb. No one of Max Baer's day, including Max Baer and
Max Schmeling, [two chaps who should know] would compare Max Baer with
Jack Dempsey both in their primes...To KNOW about Dempsey at his best
you would have to read contemporary accounts of his prowess in the ring.
I have [until Hurricane Sandy] Ring and Boxing Mags of the late 1920s extolling the prowess of Jack Dempsey as a fighter, by writers who saw him at his best. He truly beat everyone that he fought from 1918 to 1923,when he virtually retired, to lead a life of La Dolce Vita...Who can blame a guy that was a hobo riding the undercarriage of railroad freight trains, hoping
that he didn't fall under the train wheels, or being detected by the
armed RR dicks.? So after struggling for years Dempsey luckily meets a Jack Kearns who develops and guides Dempsey to fame and fortune that
gives him the opportunity to have fun for once ,go Hollywood and screw the most beautiful silent screen flappers , who by all accounts fell at his feet..
Dempsey in 1923 wasn't concerned with what some naysayers PRIMARILY
on ESB , 90 years LATER thought about his actions, and I suspect neither would his detractor's have done differently themselves...
P.S. I have to use an analogy bb. I who have seen Ray Robinson several times in his glorious welterweight prime, should somehow have a
somewhat better insight of the true ability of Sugar Ray Robinson, than
most posters of today , 65 years later who have never even seen FILM of Robinson at his very best...Wouldn't you think ? Same With the Dempsey that under Jack Kearns flattened Carl Morris, Gunboat Smith, Bill Brennan !
Billy Miske, Jess Willard, Luis angel Firpo etc. How would todays naysayers have reacted to see THIS Dempsey either ringside or on film with MODERN CAMERA'S, in REAL TIME ??? ...take care bb...
P.S. And I am convinced even if Dempsey had fought and beat my favorite fighter Harry Greb and Harry Wills , the same posters would still hold Dempsey in contempt...My honest feelings...

 

Yes bb, 90% of them, alongst everything in my house from 5 ft or so down. But I have a retentive memory when it comes to my favorite sport. Boxing. The only boxing memorabilia I have recovered aside from some old Ring Mags is a stub of the Ray Robinson/ Randy Turpin fight I attended in
1951, and also a Minnie'Ball I found at Gettysburgh, from the Civil War.
At least I have my memory's...cheers bb...

 

Greetings Tommo! Realistically I see an Ali UD against prime Jack as well but, of ALL the former HW champs, I've always thought that Dempsey had a swarming style (perhaps even faster than Smokin' Joe) that could give him fits. All being said tho, I always fall back on my obnoxious D) mantra that you just can't compare fighters from vastly different eras. My two examples I always trowel out are Patterson (an 80's-2000 Floyd would have been a chiseled 205-210 wrecking bomb) and the Klit bros. (in the 30's-40's they would have been more 'gangly' and in the 220-225 lb. range) Of course this is just my opinion and I welcome those (many with more knowledge than myself) to contradict me.

 

Look , Ali was not an over powering heavyweight so I don't see the 188 pound Dempsey getting blown out in anyway but Dempsey never had a clue how to cut off a ring ... he chased Tunney, Sharkey and Gibbons ... how was he going to catch Ali ?

I like Ali by decision ...

 

Fair to post you think Dempsey would not "catch" up with Ali at their respective bests. But for a poster to cite the Dempsey of the TUNNEY fight
fighting a prime Ali is biased by his post...Like asking a question of which actress was better looking one is in her forties, whilst the posters favorite is in her physical primes...But then you show your bias he by citing "Dempsey chased Tunney, Sharkey, and "Gibbons" who Dempsey licked decisively, who was so great a defensive fighter that in 105 bouts ,Tommy Gibbons was NEVER stopped until his last bout at age 34 against a prime Gene Tunney...Ok, I can say if a Doug Jones could give hell to Clay, and a Henry Cooper could flatten Ali at the end of a round, than a Vicious
lefthooker like Dempsey could finish the job...I'll pick the opinions of a Max Schmeling who boxed with Dempsey in Germany, or a Jack Sharkey, or a Ray Arcel, all who saw Dempsey and Ali, and CHOSE Dempsey over your
opinion any day of the week...They who saw them both should have a more valid opinion than you or me. If Cooper could almost ko Ali, the swift
powerful prime Manassa Mauler who never cut and was much much faster
than a fine Henry Cooper would do a hell of a lot better......

 

I respect Dempsey`s ability. His power and speed. He was explosive. We know that Ali took a good punch. He showed it against Frazier, Foreman etc. Even when hurt Ali was able to recuperate. He could think on his feet and surivive the moment. Whether its moving, tying his man up or even conning his man.

I dont see Dempsey blowing Ali out with his power. So IMO Jack has to take alot of punches as he tries to get inside or Ali`s blazing handspeed, height and great footwork.

There isnt any evidence to me that Dempsey could eat that kind of consistant peppering and take Ali out late. Not against a guy that skilled, big and smart.

I think Ali stops him in the late rounds.

 

he, a thought just came to me. You wrongfuly state that "Dempsey never had a clue how to cut off the ring ". Well tell it to the 50 or so opponents that Dempsey flattened in his career. Somehow I suspect Dempsey "cut off the ring " to get close to his opponent to destroy his foe, WOULDN'T a fair minded poster think ? You bring up Dempseys 188 lbs, as if he was a midget weakling. Put an Ali and a Dempsey in a closed room and lock the door and I believe strongly that Dempsey walks out ...Dempsey whether you like it or not was a very strong man when he was in his prime, from the waist up and he if Jack Kearns wanted to, come in at 215 today easily.
But in those days heavyweights trained not for size, but for speed and stamina...Not like today's behemoth's who gas after a few rounds...Take a Max Baer who at 210 pounds went 20 rounds with the George Chuvalo of his day in a hot sun. Today with Max Baer's immense shoulders he could easily make 230 pounds. Would he be better ? No way...
I have posted before that in the course of human evolution going back
250,000 years or so, 80 years don't amount to more than a hill of beans.
It is the steroid and other supplements that make today's dreadnaughts so heavy....A Fred Fulton at about 6ft 5" and 210 or so would be fighting at 230 or so and li'l ole 188 pound weakling Jack Dempsey, would still put him to sleep...And I repeat if a doug jones or Henry cooper were BIG enough to
give Ali fits than the 188-195 pound roughneck Jack Dempsey was big and stronger than these two of that I'm certain that he might very well have finished Ali...Dempsey never faced an Ali in Jack's prime it is true, but it is just as certain that Clay/ali never faced as fast and vicious a fighter like Dempsey who I might remind you again was never cut on his face, and Ali
would have trouble landing his jabs on a crouching and bobbing Dempsey.
So if Ali can't ko Dempsey ,and his jabs would not tko Dempsey, he Ali would be in a heap of trouble...One more point to mention in the 1930s
a tough Chilean Arturo Godoy gave the immortal Joe Louis fits with his
bobbing low to the ground style in their first fight in 1940. Louis's
powerful jabs were nullified by Godoy's bending low to the ground and
the frustrated Louis won a close 15 round decision. Godoy patented his style after Jack Dempsey for his fight with Louis. So in the second bout
3 months later [those days they fought often], Louis solved the Godoy
crouch by pulverizing Mr Godoy with tremendous powerful uppercuts
that caught Godoy on the chin dozens of times, and in the 8th round the referee stopped the bout with Arturo battered to hell but still on his feet.
My point is Ali without an effective jab on a crouching and bobbing Dempsey,and without Louis's murderous uppercuts would not have a walk in the park with a man like a prime fast punching Jack Dempsey, who
incidentally dropped his 235 pound sparring partner for years George Godfrey numerous times in training sessions...Dempsey loved the big boys.
P.S. In the mid 1940s I saw a ROUGH looking scarred heavyweight hitting the bag at Stillman's gym. It was the close to retired Arturo Godoy...
A tough looking cookie for sure, thanks to Mr Joe Louis and his devastating uppercuts...

 

Sorry it is late and the George Chuvalo of his time who fought Max Baer in Reno and beat Baer in TWENTY rounds was of course the bullish Spanish Basque, Paolino Uzcudun who flattened Harry Wills not long before...

 

Burt I respect what Dempsey brings to the table but at the same time not many big guys have Ali`s speed, movement and most importantly his coordination. Not saying its a walk in the park but Ali did manage to handle Frazier a couple of times and that is closer to Dempsey than anyone I know of Jack facing like Ali.

IMO Frazier was better than Dempsey.

 

Dempsey had huge trouble with movers . Tunney , Gibbons and fat Willy Meehan all gave him fits .