Dempsey vs james j jeffries

Would this not apply equally to his opponents?

Sometimes you guys do make me laugh!

 

Not something that we can really talk about with much authority.

I get the idea that Jeffries was 215ish on fight night, when he lifted the title from Fitzsimmons, but that his weigh in for the Munro fight was an accurate reflection of his weight on fight night.

With Fitzsimmons, god knows what was going on, and even he was probably a bit unsure.

The idea that Fitzsimmons was 170-190lbs for those fights definitely solves a few problems.

His power remains staggering, but it starts to look a bit more plausible.

It is perhaps more in line with what you would expect, given the photographs of him next to Jeffries.

Whatever weight Fitzsimmons was, I am convinced that he would have dominated that era, if Jeffries had not been around!

 

What I find amusing is they are trying so hard to prove that Jeffries was the superman he is painted to be and the exaggerated sensationalism of all fighters does not apply to Jeff hough according to Pollack he went 2 weeks without drinking water????this is virtually impossible since most peoples limits according to science and history is 3 days WTF??? that they are trying to say that Fitz who was roughly the same height as Frazier was close to Fraziers weight and to prove he was dehydrated which explains a nearly 6ft man can still be skinny 5'11" 180 is not skinny which was about Marciano's lowest fight weight is noone else seeing what I see I mean Archie Moore at 5'11" and 180 was big but Fitz was skinny.....does no one else with a knowledge of the era and other fighters not see this?? The almighty Jeff plot thickens

 

A human being can't go 2 weeks without water...unless he was Marvin Camel.

I always marvel at Mark Breland....6'3", 147 pounds!?!

 

Johnson in that reference.

 

In my younger days I did alot of fasting and three days without water can cause problems throughout the body as well as being the limit science says most people can go without it before some organs start to shut down.

 

Well, that quote is from page 217 of Adam Pollack's biography. As Adam footnotes his works, the quote comes from the New York Journal, June 12, 1899.

I would point out that not drinking water does not rule out drinking other fluids, such as juices or milk.

Both here and in his autobiography Jeff states that he severely dehydrated himself. And "not" drinking water might have been his way of saying he only drank a minimal amount of water.

Hard to see why Jeff would make such a point of dehydration with a reporter if there was nothing to it.

The issue raised was not the gap between the two men, as it was certainly huge given that Jeff was so big for his day, but whether Fitz was never more than a "natural middleweight" as another poster is maintaining. As such, the dehydration factor becomes important.

Was Fitz at a puffed up weight or was he at the minimal weight he could make, and what in fact was that weight?

 

The quote is from the New York Journal on June 12, 1899 and directly by Jeffries. Your reaction assumes that being quoted as "not drinking water" means literally he didn't drink water, rather than he drank a minimum amount of water or other fluids.

I think this is somewhat of a phony issue, as Jeff obviously drank enough fluids to be able to function at a high physical level and in fact win the championship.

But I see no reason to doubt his word about his severely dehydrating himself to get his weight down. Why would he make that up?

 

Your argument is with the New York Journal reporter who quoted Jeff on June 12, 1899. Your whole point rests on taking "not drinking water" to a literal extreme. It is obvious Jeff got enough fluids to function at a high physical level. And the readers in 1899 would have understood that he did not mean literally no water.

On the other hand he says he was dehydrated to get his weight down. Why doubt that? Jeff mentioned years later in his autobiography that he felt himself much more comfortable at 215 or above. apparently at least 10 lbs. above what he weighed for the June 9, 1899 fight.

Just a point though. Most observers thought Jeff looked quick and good against Fitz in 1899.

"Superman"

You really are stuck on this dead end argument. Dehydrating yourself doesn't make you a superman. It just means they were using some counterproductive training ideas in those days.

"Frazier"

Frazier weighed over 200 lbs. No one claims Fitz weighed much above the 170's or perhaps 180 or so. Archie Moore also fought often at weights far above any even remotely claimed for Fitz. I agree that Fitz probably looks thin next to either of them, and was in fact.

 

That photo is generally credited as being from the 1902 fight, in which Jeff's weight was supposedly 219 or so. Fitz being close to 40 lbs. lighter still puts him at about 180.

 

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If Frazier and Quarry were not 200 lb. fighters than you are only proving that weights even at OFFICIAL weigh-ins are inaccurate. How much more inaccurate would be guesswork weights at a fight in which there is no official weigh-in.

Quarry was listed at 183 for his first fight at 20. He was over 190 for all but one fight after that first year. 19 times he had a listed weight above 200 lbs. He was listed at 209 for Randy Neumann at 28, and at 210 for Scrapiron Johnson at 30. These weights are certainly far above even the highest possible weight for Fitz.

Frazier has even higher weights listed, such as 215 for the 3rd Ali fight, and 224 for the 2nd Foreman fight. His weights are actually more like Jeff's than those of Fitz. Even if the high 190's is accurate, that is still quite a bit heavier than Fitz (or Dempsey).

By the way, check the film of Walcott and Marciano. A 12 lb. difference but Walcott looks significantly bigger. Louis looks much bigger than Walcott with a 17 lb. pull in 1947. I just disagree with your judgment that Fitz looks so small he must be a middleweight.

As for Moore, his actual listed weights in his championship fights really aren't very different from what Fitz supposedly weighed fighting Jeff. Like Fitz, Moore had an odd build. His legs look thin, supporting a really heavy upper body. Looking at the fight with Rinaldi, Rinaldi's legs look bigger, but Moore looks wider across the shoulders and chest.

And yes I know Moore's weight varied a lot. After all, I listed weights taking him from 145 to 206 in a previous post.

 

You could learn a lot from Janitor or Ed.

What does my comment have to do with the thread? Some ( You ) feel Jeffries better opponents were on the smaller side, I wanted to point out Dempsey, who won the title at 182 pounds and was seldom over 190 was small too and he doesn't hit harder than Fitz according to what I have read, however many people hurt of floored Dempsey that likely did not hit as hard as Jeffries.

Dempsey's attacking nature, plays into Jeffries hands, and Jeffries could take it for longer and Dempsey could not, Jeffries would also own Dempsey in a clinch. Dempsey had skinny type of legs and would be giving up 30 pounds give or take a few.

I already posted all the most of the top fighters from 1892-1920 called Jeffries the best, and Dempsey himself doesn't think he would win here.

 

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Sure,

Nat Fleischer rated Fitz as the best knockout puncher and body puncher among the heavyweights. He also asserted that Fitz possessed the best possessed the best hook and said this in the early 1970's! Nat also rated Fitz over Dempsey and said Jeffries beat the best competition.

Sandy Griswold said in the Dec 24, 1904 National Police Gazette, “He knows all the vulnerable spots of the human anatomy as well as the most erudite surgeon in the business and has a greater variety of effective blows than any fighter who ever lived.”

I'll see if I can find what Edgar Masters said.

Fitz killed three men, two from official fights, one from sparring. His power was lethal.