Dempsey vs james j jeffries

That's one name and I wouldnt put much stock into Fleischer's opinion on who hit harder between the two.

 

Hype Igoe, one of the top sportswriters of the early part of the century wrote an article on "Famous Finishers" in Feb. 1941 for The Ring. The text of the article makes clear Igoe considered finishing the same as punching. It is just an older term.

Hype Igoe listed his top punchers thus--

Bob Fitzsimmons, Jack Dempsey, Young Otto, George Chaney, Joe Louis, Kid McCoy, Stanley Ketchel, Newark Patsy Kline, Aurelio Herrera, Dal Hawkins, Peter Maher, Georges Carpentier, Tommy Ryan, Joe Walcott, and Charley White.

Now it is significant, I think, that Fitz is listed first as the list isn't in historical or alphabetical order, but I can't be certain Igoe definitely meant he rated Fitz first.

No doubt, though, that he seems to have thought of Fitz first.

Igoe later commented on Fitz.

"He was an all-time great hitter. Usually when he hit them right, they stayed put."

Igoe on Dempsey.

"Dempsey was a swifter finisher than Joe Louis, in my opinion. That's why I think a fight between Joe and Jack would have ended in the first round, with Jack the winner."

 

Igoe by the way is a big Dempsey fan, so by listing Fitz ahead of him, it means something.

When Fitz hit guys, they just dropped, often without taking an attrition level type of beating.

See Sharkey, Corbett, Maher, or Ruhlin.

From Feb 1890 to 1904, Fitz had something like 60 listed fights, only Jeffries stopped him.

 

Dempsey was 187 lbs for the Willard fight.1st Mistake!
Dempsey was prime ,both Fitzsimmons and Corbett were coming out of retirement amd in their 30's Fitz was 37 and 38! 2nd Mistake!
Jeffries stated that Sharkey was always a real hard chore to overcome because he was always coming forward and never gave him time to set himself .That is Dempsey to a T ! Dempsey was also much more dynamic than Sharkey faster, a better boxer, harder hitter, and harder to hit.
3rd Mistake!
Dempsey was used to conceding weight thats why he was nick named," The Giant Killer."4th Mistake! Dempsey was used hit by fully fledged heavyweights Jeffries was not.5th Mistake!
Jeffries retired in May1905. 6th Mistake!

You could learn a lot from just about every poster on here ,but you never will because you are a bigoted Johnson hater ,with a closed mind and that will never ever change!

 

Igoe was at the Fitzsimmons v Jeffries second fight,he said Fitz gave Jeffries a worse beating than Dempsey gave Willard.

 

No doubt he had power but he also fought in an ignorant era where fighters would travel suffering head injuries from KO's and abuse week after week when gloves were rudimentary and standing 8 counts did not exist......we know today that when fighters die in the ring it is usually prior injuries untreated or overlooked....

Also if you take every word of Fleischer as gospel then you must accept everything he wrote....otherwise you cannot pick and choose what is his biased opinion and what is fluff storytelling common in boxing circles.

Well then many close to the era believed Jeff retired to avoid the top black fighters after all he did bring a retired washed up Corbett out of retirement and the same with Fitz and Ruhlin was nearly beaten to death by Fitz but during a short period Jack Johnson fought 16 fights and was still denied....Jeff was a racist bigot like most in his era and made no bones about his attitude it was well documented so why do you try to be apologetic and defensive of it.....he retired to avoid fighting prime black fighters with the size and strength to expose him.

Now can we get out of this fictitious superhero world you guys created for Jeff and his fantastic super friends and get back to common sense....the purpose I bring up Marciano and others is to jar your brains into seeing the sheer lack of comparable mass Fitz had to fighters in which you guys alleged he was the same height and weight......he is suspected according the Jeff Cult to be 180+ and now he hits harder than Dempsey.... Which would place him size wise with Marciano, Patterson, Frazier 60's version....and being shorter a skinnier guy than Dempsey and shorter to boot the same weight?

 

Yes he ko'd Sharkey twice and ko'd Ruhlin ,something Jeffries couldn't do in either case!Despite fighting both twice!

 

Why do you think he is defensive and apologetic of Jeffries proven racial bigotry?

 

Hmmmm he seems to be ok with racism he after all defends the hell out of Jeffries and even tried to say it isn't true?

 

What does that indicate to you?

 

Which black fighter did Dempsey ever fight? How about one, and he beat the heck out of him in a fight that was ruled a draw. Jeffries actually fought better black fighters on the way up, as champion, and came back much later to defend his lineal title.

Estimated Weights, John Lester Johnson 170, Jack Dempsey 181

"Shortly before Dempsey won the World Heavyweight Championship in 1919, The Cedar Rapids Evening Gazette quoted him as saying the following about his fight with John Lester Johnson: "In the second round, Johnson pulled something on me I had never seen before. He just lifted my right arm up high and then soaked me in the ribs. He broke three of 'em for me. He hit me on the chin in that round, too, and I saw many a star. He knew too much for me. ... I thought he licked me. I didn't know how to fight then, and Johnson did. Yes, I think he won and he taught me more that night than I have ever dreamed of before."

^^^ Sounds like the Mauler himself felt he lost that one.

 

Ah, the point when McVey, famous here for detrimental remarks to accomplished white heavies plays the race card. How predictable and pathetic!

The color line can be misunderstood. What fighters say and do when the money is up can differ.
Jeffries is unfairly labeled. As Champion, he fought some black name fighters on the way up, gave one a shot as champion in a 4 round match. He also said Johnson was under consideration for a title match after Munroe.

Johnson as champion skirted the best black challengers in Langford, McVey, and Jeannette. He even pulled out of a match that he signed a contract with to meet Langford in 1909! Jeannete said he drew the color line against his own people. Are you aware of this Rich?

Dempsey avoiding Wills is well discussed here. Would racists defend Dempsey for doing this? I do not! I think Dempsey most certainly should have fought Wills, if not in the USA, someplace else. In fact Greb probably deserved a shot too, so you could argue Dempsey didn't fight the two most qualified as champion.

If we fast forward many years Joe Louis fought but two African Americans in 26 title matches.
The heavyweight color line ended in Marciano's time.

 

Jeffries DID stop Ruhlin, one round faster than Fitzsimmons. More lies and wrong information from our village idiot. Geez McVey get some help.

+1, so far as I count your mistakes in this thread

By the way Fitz has a DQ loss to Sharkey and Ko'd the Sharkey Jeffries beat on in 1899. Facts you will not add

 

Again, I wouldn't put much stock into sports writers other than to a certain extent. They can't really judge who hit harder when they aren't in the ring. Either way though, thanks for the post and I'm quite certain that both fighters had massive power and could put anyone out with the right punch.

 

I used Fleshier as an example. He was there and lived it. Others are giving you further examples if you read them

I already told you the following:

Jeffries retired in 1904. Sam Langford wasn't even 20 years old, or an estimated 156 pounds in 1906, two full years AFTER Jeffries retired. Re-read that again. Furthermore Langford's manager advertised he'd fight any man except for Jeffries. What does that tell you? Langford was in awe of Jeffries. He and Jeannette picked him in 1910 to beat Johnson even though he was inactive, fat and old.

Sam McVey was a 19 year old in 1904. lost three fights in a row, and in fact GAVE up boxing in 1905. Oh sure, Jeffries retired to avoid him! Come on'

Jeannette had NO amateur experience, and just started boxing in 1904! By the time Jeffries retied, Jeanette was 0-4. Oh sure, Jeffries retired to avoid him too!

Rich, why can't you listen & learn? Jeffries did NOT retire to avoid Mcvey, Jeanette or Langford. He came back old to fight Johnson. None of the guys your suggesting made Jeffries retire. He had the fight with Marvin Hart, who beat Johnson in 1905. Wasn't enough money in it. If Hart was black, I'm sure you might think he ducked him out of racism.

Finally you're quoting Nat Fleisher here! Didn't you say " if you take every word of Fleischer as gospel then you must accept everything he wrote " Nat is mistaken here. Jeffries retied because the money dried up. Want proof? He passing on a match with Hart, and years later a match with a fighter from Australia.

Also I asked you, what would Jeffries estimated 30 pounds mean in a match with Dempsey. You mention Jeffries fought some lighter guys, yet Corbett was even with or heavier than Dempsey. I did not see you reply here, so you can now. You're caught in some double standards.