Dempsey vs james j jeffries

I am talking about 1 man punching another man in the face and body the power does not leave when the speed does...Johnson was older and heavier but not shot.....Willard could take a good punch and Johnson tried to KO the man to no avail their is video of his aggression you know this right???there is also video of Jeffries being KO'd by Johnson without near the effort and there is eyewitness accounts of Johnson more than likely in their opinion not mine of being able to stop Jeff anytime he wanted......there is also video of prime Johnson walking around the ring and not making a clear effort to end the fight even with Jeff wide open....There is video 4 yrs after of Dempsey hitting the same Willard and destroying him in the first round and beating him ring post to pillar in rds 2-3. From the video evidence Dempsey's power surpassed Johnson's by orders of magnitude....Johnson made little effort to stop Jeffries until the 15th and had him hurt at will.....not sure where the disconnect here is...

 

Exactly!!!

 

You are correct the stories concerning Jeff and his fights do not pass the sniff test the video cameras of the day were huge and as you say either it was alien technology unknown by even the top video producers of the day and given the quality and tiny size compared to technology of the day or the cigar box was huge and was carried in by 2-4 men without notice?!?!?!? the story is bull****...the lights may be hot given the lighting of the day but not burning hair and video hot jeeeez....the stories smell of Bert Sugar style storytelling.....he was a great story teller and conversationalist no doubt have a beer and just listen but great story tellers do have a flair for unreal sensationalism.

 

You’re probably right. That said, I did find a motion picture camera that was impressively small invented in 1894:

http://le-grenier-des-sciences.over-blog.com/article-le-cinematographe-des-fr-47413205.html

It is a little bigger than a cigar box. So the story that it was snuck in by a cigar box is not true. However, it’s not terribly larger than a cigar box. So perhaps more accurately it may have been confused as a cigar box.

That is the owner brought in this weird box camera and the ticket taker saw the box and said, “What’s that?” And the owner said, “That there is a cigar box.”

“Don’t look like no cigar box I ever saw.”

“It’s from China.”

“Ha...China cigars huh? They make some weird cigar boxes.”

“Sure do chief.”

“Better not be Food or drink.”

“Honest sir. Ain’t no food or drink here.”

“Better not be a camera....”

***awkward pause***

***laughter because ticket taker was joking knowing there’s no way to fit a camera in a small box.....little does he know. Little does he know.”

 

just on the filming of the Jeffries-Sharkey fight, I came across info on it which seems logical in an article called "The History of the Discovery of Cinematography."

According to the article, the rights to the film were purchased by the American Mutoscope and Biograph Company (called Biograph).

The article describes how the "official" film was made.

"Biograph operated four cameramen to film the event. One camera was designated to shoot the action, one remained loaded and ready when cameraman one signaled he had run out of film. A third camera was on rotation and reloading while a fourth was for backup in case one of the three failed."

It does comment on the lights--"Both fighters complained the arc lamps were too hot."

According to the article, no "fan" somehow filmed the fight. Instead, a rival motion picture firm, Vitagraph, illegally filmed the fight--

"in the early days of movies, there was ruthlessness in the business. Vitagraph had secretly stationed its camera further back, behind the Biograph employees and cameras."

Vitagraph did manage to film the fight (or possibly only some of the fight) but was eventually discovered by Biograph. Biograph legally "removed the film from the Vitagraph lab on the evening they processed the film."

The "official" Biograph film appears to be completely lost, but ironically, the Vitagraph "bootleg" has partially survived.

The bottom line here would be that this film was by pros, but obviously not under optimal conditions.

 

QUOTE="janitor, post: 18994903, member: 3871"]I think that this is unlikely, and probably irrelevant as well.

The only other fighter that Johnson stopped in a title fight, was the middleweight Stanley Ketchell[/QUOTE]
Sullivan and Fitzsimmons ,ringside to cheer on Jeffries both thought Johnson could have ended the fight much earlier had he tried.Johnson gave credit to Jeffries for taking his lumps ,but said he didn't try to end it until the late stages and he didn't go after Jeff until the 14th rd.
The referee stopped the Flynn fight at the intervention of the police Flynn was ready to go .Was the Burns fight not for the title?
You seem to be implying Johnson was deficient in power?

He carried Ross and Kaufman, and several times Ferguson.

Kayoing Sam McVey , no easy feat indicates he could punch with power when he wanted to.
He knocked Ketchel senseless for 12 minutes, Denver Ed Martin for 10 minutes.
I think he could have stopped Jeffries around the halfway mark had he tried but why take a chance when you are winning so easily,and enjoying yourself so much? He had waited a very long time to pay Jeffries back for his behaviour towards him and so ,just as he did with Burns he made it last.

 

You can see the lights are not only too powerful for comfort they are too low, both Jeffries and Sharkey had their heads blistered.Jeffries is said to have attributed his baldness to the heat his scalp endured in this fight.

 

Johnson allowed Jeffries to make the running early on expending his energy attempting to push Jack back in the clinches.I don't think Johnson was especially aggressive in the first two thirds of the fight.

 

From what I can see here, I'd say that Dempsey in much more dynamic than either of them and frankly I'd fancy him to wrap matters up early. The footage is terrible though so maybe I'm not doing them justice. Jeffries seems like a big, durable mauler, but Dempsey didn't really play that game. Unless Jeffries has a fantastic chin allowing him to weather the Dempsey hurricane, and win late, you have to favour Jack, and heavily.

 

IT all comes down to what you think of Jeffries .. was he a clumsy brute that outlasted older, talented, smaller men past their best or was he for real, a super strong, rock chinned, crafty fighter with underrated skills (like a Marciano ) , bruising power and terrific stamina ..

He may have been a very tough match up for Jack as Dempsey was a fast starter who only (had to) show real stamina against Brennan and Gibbons .. I think Dempsey was highly skilled and if he fought a controlled fight like a Morrison vs Foreman he would chop Jeff up over time and finish what a Fitzsimmons kind of started in their second bout but if he got clipped early and went off like he did kamikaze against Firpo he might lose ..

 

Nice match up, I have not seen it here.

When asked who would win in a match up, Dempsey himself said he'd get his chin knocked off. When asked to name greats, he often said Jeffries name first.

So there you have it. I think it would be a terrific fight for the early rounds, but Dempsey is a bit of an early front-runner, and Jeffries hit very hard too. He'd probably wear Dempsey down in the mid rounds and finish him in the later rounds.

Dempsey's chin might not be as great as some think. On film, Jack Sharkey rocks him, and Tunney floors him and has him in a bad way. Frio who doesn't land much also floors him in round one. Off film lost via KO to Flynn and was down in some other fights. Jeffries his a lot harder than all of the above JD was also hurting a bit and behind in a fight vs Brennan.

I'm not saying Dempsey had a weak chin, I think it was good overall, but I do think his offense saved him for talking punches, at least in the early rounds. Willard and Fulton ( two of the best punchers of the time ), really did not land much on Dempsey. If they did, It could have told us more. Heck a non-title fight with an older Sam Langford which Dempsey manager's decline could have told us more too.

 

What indicates that Jeffries hit harder than Firpo?

 

Who did Firpo every stop that could be viewed as a top fighter? Brennan might be it, and he took 12 rounds to do it. Did you see Firpo vs Wills? He doesn't look like much a puncher to me or very skilled. And his punch resistance vs Dempsey wasn't very good.

His record is full of journeyman types, often on a losing streak of coming off a loss.

I'm not saying he could not punch, I just don't think he was a special puncher, and his KO% is inflated by many no names.

 

Apart from Ruhlin whom Fitzsimmons had already half killed, which boxer in his prime , over 188lb and under 35 did Jeffries ever stop?
Jeffries rep as a puncher is based on him stopping an ancient Fitz 37 and 39 coming back from inactivity and conceding tons of weight both times.
Taking 23 rds to stop a comebacking Corbett who was again conceding a ton of weight.
Requiring 10rds to stop a thoroughly washed up Corbett in their rematch!
Thats it!

Jeffries face was beaten to a pulp by a 39years old 172pounds coming out of retirement Fitzsimmons . The fight would have been stopped today
Why wouldn't a prime Dempsey be able to go one better?

Nobody's punch resistance against Dempsey was ,"very good".lol.

 

Whatever you think of the era, he was beating the best opposition available.

You can't do a lot more.

Then I would have hoped for something a bit more interesting, than reeling off the weight's and ages of his opponents, and dismissing them based on those numbers alone!

It is not me who thinks that Jeffries was unbeatable, that is simply the way that he was viewed at the time, by both black and white observers.

The difference between Corbett (before he fought Jeffries) and Jeffries (before he fought Johnson), is that Corbett was fighting regular exhibitions, so he was not inactive as such.

Jeffries for contrast, was just living on a farm and getting fat.

As somebody who trains fighters, you should understand that Jeffries was not going to stay inactive for that long, drop that much weight, and get anything like his old form back.

He did not have the best sparring partners that white America could conjour up, he was sparring with other past prime and retired fighters, which in hindsight was a bad sign.

You make two statements here, one of which is true, and one of which is not.

It is true that Jeffries never beat anybody of the caliber of Johnson or Dempsey, as they never beat anybody of his prime caliber.

Your second point, that Jeffries chin was untested is wrong, because you are assuming a direct correlation between body weight and power.

Johnson was the best opponent that Jeffries faced, but I doubt that he was the hardest hitter that Jeffries faced.