Dempsey vs Liston

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by swagdelfadeel, Dec 12, 2015.

  1. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Dempsey's crouching style plays right into Liston's hands.

    Dempsey could attempt to box but, in truth, he was no more "Boxer" than Liston was. Dempsey is labored to the body and catches a Solid uppercut to the chin. He's never been hit so hard.

    Forget the punch that sent Dempsey flying out of the ring against FIrpo. Both were so wild it's a wonder Firpo didn't follow him out of the ring. Jack was more off balance than anything, though Firpo did catch him shortly before to put him off balance.

    Sonny Liston would simply be too strong for Jack Dempsey. Dempsey would have his moments as he does have the faster hands. However, styles make fights and he would not keep LIston in trouble long enough to score a win. Dempsey would visit the canvas twice before the bout is stopped.

    Liston by KO in 7
     
  2. Rock0052

    Rock0052 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I'm always on the fence on this one. I could certainly see your narrative play out, but Dempsey's got a big hand and foot speed advantage, as well as exceptional short punching power. I could see another scenario play out the sharp punching of Dempsey takes out Liston, making him look like a plodder in the process if he doesn't allow Liston to dictate the pace. Jack had problems with smaller, faster fighters, but he was brutally good when he had a speed advantage. He's got one here.

    Toss-up fight for me.
     
  3. turpinr

    turpinr Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I don't see dempsey bothering liston much even if he gets inside his jab.
    I think Sonny would get it over with inside 4 rounds, ending it with his left hook
     
  4. Anubis

    Anubis Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Liston was no fast and mobile Tunney with his slower jab. This is a situation where Sonny would have trouble connecting on a bobbing and weaving Dempsey. Liston would be one of those big slow guys that were easy meat for Jack.

    Dempsey clobbers Sonny with the same left hook Machen buckled Liston with 30 seconds before the end of round eight, Sonny's going down. I now believe Eddie only lost because of those strained ligaments in his right arm, and would have won a rematch with two healthy arms. When Machen unloaded his hook, he had Liston flinching and ducking. Dempsey was a little taller with a slightly longer reach than Eddie, and they competed in the same weight range. (In fact, the highest recorded competitive weight for both was 200 pounds, Dempsey for Tom Riley in March 1918, and Machen for Clarence Williams a year and a half before Liston.)

    For another visual, Leotis Martin was about the same height and reach as Dempsey, and again often competed in the same weight range, although he used a movement attrition template to cede rounds to an aging Liston before wiping him out. Seeing lesser opponents of Dempsey's size competing with, hurting and knocking Sonny out is no abstraction. We can see it happen in real life with the footage of a one armed Machen and Leotis.

    I think Sonny would have utterly terrified Jack, have him completely intimidated and freaked out. Dempsey would return to his corner after the referee's instructions feeling he was fighting for his life, just like he did when confronted by the giant Willard. Only a suicidal idiot would attempt to psych out Jack Dempsey, leaving him with the mentality of a cornered wild animal.

    Now, I don't consider Ali at all when evaluating Liston. I look at Machen's right to the body putting Nino Valdes down for the count in July 1956, add that to Eddie's artillery for Liston, and I don't see Sonny getting to that shot at Patterson. Machen knocked out others with that right, but Valdes is the best footage documenting the power in it (maybe the only footage, I dunno). Dempsey nicknamed his right, "Iron Mike," and actually considered it to be his more powerful punch. He hammered it twice to Brennan's body to put KO Bill down for the count. Because it was an extended sub-par performance by Jack, it revealed two things. One, he had the legs to outmaneuver Liston for at least 12 rounds the way Machen did. Two, it demonstrated Dempsey carried ten count knockout power into round 12. (Later, he had Tommy Gibbons fading at the end of 15, and it didn't look like Tommy could have lasted 20.)
     
  5. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Why are you bringing up, Leotis Martin? Liston was over ten years past his prime.
     
  6. Hookandjab

    Hookandjab Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I agree. The Martin fight is irrelevant because Liston was ancient at the time. The Machen fight, however, is significant.
     
  7. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Liston is way too good outside and inside for Dempsey to have a cat in hell's chance with. If Dempsey get's past the jab, big if, then he gets smashed with uppercuts and short hooks inside.

    Liston by KO within 3
     
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  8. Perry

    Perry Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Dempsey would not bother Liston even if he gets in close?

    Sharkey ....."I never thought any fighter could hit that hard". "When Dempsey hit you on your shoulder he breaks your shoulder. If he hits you to the body it feels like his fist is coming out your back. If he hits you on the hip he dislocates your hip"

    Do you Also think Joe Louis punches would not "bother" Liston? Sharkey who fought both Louis and Dempsey felt Dempsey hit harder than Louis.

    Of course Dempseys punches would bother Liston. Such an insane comment.
     
  9. Rock0052

    Rock0052 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I didn't get that one, either.

    I can't imagine Sonny would be thrilled eating shots on the inside like tic-tacs considering Jack's short punching power. Someone would have to buy into the invincible Sonny myth much more than I'm willing to to think Dempsey can't hurt him.
     
  10. burt bienstock

    burt bienstock Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Dempsey is so,so underrated on this forum from misguided posters who doesn't give a hoot what a vast majority of veteran boxing experts who saw him ringside at his best and raved about his prowess as one of the greatest heavyweight ever...They in their infinite wisdom MUST know better than multitudes of fighters, trainers, boxing writers who WERE THERE when Dempsey was held in awe, and became the greatest ring attraction ever...They must feel so superior to somehow think that such ex fighters as Tunney, Sam Langford,
    Mickey Walker, Jack Sharkey, Max Schmeling ,Ray Arcel, Hype Igoe, Damon Runyon and others, all who held Jack Dempsey in such high esteem, knew
    squat compared to them...As for me, I'll opt for the above names I mention
    having more knowledge than some Dempsey detractors on this forum...
    Dempsey pre Hollywood was a helluva fistic threat against any heavyweight who ever lived...And with my other favorite heavyweight Joe Louis at their bests
    I would favor over any behemoth of these sad heavyweights...TIMBER...
     
  11. Vanboxingfan

    Vanboxingfan Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I honestly don't know who I would favor between the two, but you make a persuasive argument in favor of Dempsey. :good
     
  12. Seamus

    Seamus Devotee of the Little Red Book Full Member

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    Dempsey never even faced a heavyweight as good as Patterson. How in the hell can you say he is going to be beat Liston?

    Oh, let me guess, some liver spotted white dope saw them both 40 years apart and picked Jack...
     
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  13. Rock0052

    Rock0052 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Probably because I think Sonny, who has been the favorite of the hipster doofus for a few years on this board, is the most overrated heavyweight great on the forum, and Jack, outside of a few hardcore loyalists, is on the other end of the spectrum. His average approval rating now is somewhere between the cable company and ebola.

    So, even though I can easily see a case for Sonny winning and called it a toss up, I'm rolling with the scenario where Jack wins. Because "why not?". Resumes don't fight fights, anything can happen come fight night, the black panthers would back Dempsey and kidnap Sonny's wife, and yada yada yada. Take your pick. It's time for some whiskey.
     
  14. burt bienstock

    burt bienstock Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Seamus, I had respect for you until you have to DEMEAN "liver spotted WHITE dopes" as you put it so elegantly...Would you use the term
    "black dopes ever ". I think not. Well I'm also white and certainly not young anymore, but I'm not going to disregard your ludicrous
    insults of men who though dead lo these many years knew a helluva more than you do...Shame on you...Some day you too will grow old...
     
  15. turpinr

    turpinr Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    The first time i saw footage of dempsey vs willard i could not believe how crude he looked.
    Id pick the majority of world heavyweight champions from Louis onwards to beat him.
    Louis, Foreman and Liston would all anhialate Dempsey in my opinion.