Dempsey vs Liston

In her wisdom, she has disposed of all the 187 pound (with weights in pockets) heavyweights in deference for physically superior SuperHeavyweights of the New and Golden Era of the division.

If you insist on humoring us on Dempsey's potential in the modern rings, at least assign him in these fantasies to the proper division (cruiser/light heavy) barnstorming the MidWestern circuit, fighting in Ramada Inns and occasionally perhaps free TV walk-on bouts, building up a crowd-pleasing, lunchpail-carrying reputation until he runs into the more talented athletes of these divisions. He would be great fun indeed. I agree to that.

 

If im to do a totally honest assessment of Demosey using all avaible footage i think i need to conclude:

Any man weighing 190 pounds come fight night today would be no higher than CW and possibly even drain themselves to LHW.

In all likelihood Jack cleans up the CW division then bulks up to about 215 pounds to make his assault on the HW division today but that doesn't effect this match here.

History shows that Holy and Haye were able to keep their speed advantage so it would be fair to assume Dempsey would. Let's not question his power because his whole rep is based on the power that everyone agreed he had. There are a few indications towards his defence, we see him stalk patiently against Willard until the point he saw an opening, we saw him slip 6 punches from Tunney and no one acted like it was new for him to do that, and we saw him go ***** to the wall against Firpo and get caught.

Against Liston you would assume he would have weighed 190 pounds as there wasn't a cruiser limit back then. We would also assume he stalks from range but obviously Liston is much more technically astute than Willard so wouldn't leave himself as open. Combine that with Liston's jab and you have to assume Liston wins the early rounds until Jack takes a chance.

So let's say its round 3 and Jack is getting frustrated at being kept at range, he decides to slip a jab and fires off inside, at this juncture there's no guarantee he gets off first as Liston might catch him on the way in. Once up close and they're exchanging I am not entirely sure how anyone could favour Dempsey there, unless they believe he will knock Liston out during that exchange. As the fight wears on any exchanges will begin to favour Liston because I doubt either man gets dispatched first time they trade power shots. I expect Dempsey feels the power and retreats, at some point Dempsey comes in tiring and gets smashed by Liston for a fairly brutal ko.

Big men have been knocked out cold by a supposed LHW puncher. Both men lost to the best boxer they faced even though they were favourites for both fights. Liston was able to win some rounds off Ali, Dempsey was able to score a flash knockdown against Tunney.

These two had very similar careers but I still draw the same conclusions, exchanging power shots favours the naturally bigger man. Stalking from range favours the superior jabber. Coming in wild is suicide. Unless Dempsey scores a ko punch he's gonna lose by beat down. A punchers chance is something I never back.

 

If Dempsey approaches Liston in the same way he did Willard I can't make it any less than 50/50. He would take his time, be alert, look to weave under a jab that was never the quickest then roll under to come back over with a hook.

Dempsey knew his main weakness was that he had no reverse gear which is why he would never engage it, never try to throw the kind of desperate right Patterson did in the rematch which Liston just gobbled up, no, Dempsey would time his weave to ensure maximum leverage, the kind of leverage Patterson could never get, and if he gets Sonny square which Big Cat never did then expect results.

A humdinger while it lasts but at Dempsey's best his edge in speed and ability to slip range finders gives him the chance to get off first and with the most.

 

Bump. Anyone else have a take?

 

If Dempsey approaches Liston like he did Willard and swings for the fences...

he lasts about as long as Floyd.

 

We are talking about a fantasy fight between a prime Jack Dempsey and sonny liston. Meaning that both Dempsey's corner and Liston's corner knew about each others attributes. If the fight were to be held in 1920 or so Dempsey would be about 195 and liston about 215 pounds as in those days fighters were trained to be as lithe as possible and
to say a Jack Dempsey was not STRONG enough to tackle big men defy's history and logic. He loved bigger, slower men as his record shows. He flattened big strong guys as Carl Morris, Fred fulton, Luis angel Firpo, Jess Wiilard, all he ko'd in a round or two, because he was exceptionally fast and very strong for his weight which was very large boned, carrying his weight mostly from the waist up. Of course Sonny Liston was strong and heavy handed no doubt, but my gut feeling tells me that Dempsey's speed of attack will win the day and what a famous Civil War General's famous saying" To Get There
Fustess With the Mostest " will hold true for a Dempsey ko.
And this to one poster on this site. If one of the shrewdest managers of all time Jack Kearns thought that fattening up Dempsey to 215 or so pounds in his prime, Dempsey could have easily made this weight
because of his build, but Jack Kearns knew better that speed trumps
heft and wisely brought Dempsey in about 190-5 in his Title days. My money is on Dempsey because of speed and dexterity...Sue me !

 

Any time before the CW limit change I don't doubt that Jack weighs 190 against anyone.

Once the CW limit hit 200 he would weigh more of he wanted to fight real HW fighters.

 

I would lean towards Dempsey in this.

So much of the fight will be determined real early in the opening round and who establishes what first. And mistakes and who is the opportunist. I think Dempsey makes it a footwork fight.

I do not think he attacks from 12 o'clock or straight on. Nor does he attack from 11 and avoids that left hook. So I think he turns Liston and/or forces Sonny to move that right foot of his & Sonny needs those feet planted.

I think avoiding a straight line into Liston is the key of the fight. The quick legs and footwork and techniques of a Jack Dempsey with his first 2 steps puts him in the winning area. A tightrope act to pull off, but Sonny Liston is on a tightrope himself. And I think it's easier to get Liston off the tightrope and make mistakes of the 2, and by a pretty wide margin at that.

So kind of a which guy does not make the mistakes early for his opponent to capitalize on type fight.

 

The difference is that in a tough fight Liston will fold. Dempsey had the heart and will to win of an ATG. Liston did not.

 

The Williams fights were tough, no doubt about it.

 

Burt

"My money is on Dempsey because of speed and dexterity . . . sue me!"

No reason to drag lawyers into it. This is not an out fight either way. I would say it would be 6-5 or just pick 'em. It is reasonable to think the faster Dempsey would win this one.

There is no one that Liston beat that I can't see Dempsey handling also,

and I think he would have done better against Ali, even if I think he would have come out second.

 

Yes,it's a style thing. Dempsey would be more competitive against Ali than Liston was but in spite of that,I visualise Liston stopping Dempsey within five rounds.

 

Last bump...Anyone else have a tactical take on this interesting hypothetical?