Dempsey vs Wills article

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Perry, Jul 30, 2015.


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  1. Perry

    Perry Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Just pure ****. The facts are known and they completely exonerate Dempsey. Wills himself completely exonerated Dempsey. End of story.

    The facts concerning this eposode in boxing history I read about back in the 70's within every boxing periodical. Same exact facts were known then as they are known now. They exonerated Dempsey then. They exonerate Dempsey now. Nothing new. Just a few who either are too stupid to understand history or purposefully distort history to lay blame on Dempsey. Nothing more.
     
    Perry, Aug 1, 2015
    Perry, Aug 1, 2015
    #46
  2. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Lots of people disagree with you; it is astonishing arrogance to believe they are all "too stupid" or "too biased" or "don't know enough about boxing" to understand their own feelings.
     
    McGrain, Aug 1, 2015
    McGrain, Aug 1, 2015
    #47
  3. Perry

    Perry Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Not a question of feelings. Historical fact.

    The vast majority of known respected historians understand the facts. You don't. End of discussion.
     
    Perry, Aug 1, 2015
    Perry, Aug 1, 2015
    #48
  4. billy smith

    billy smith Member Full Member

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    Wills achieved greater historical significance because of the one guy he never fought then all the greats he did Seems ??
     
    billy smith, Aug 1, 2015
    billy smith, Aug 1, 2015
    #49
  5. Foxy 01

    Foxy 01 Boxing Junkie banned

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    Are you per chance a teenaged girl Kerry? Do you even know that hero worship of another human being who is not even related to you is both unhealthy, and pathetic?

    It is what teenaged girls do to actors and " pop stars ". Thankfully in most instances they grow up, and have children of their own, and realise their hero worship was " stupid " and " idiotic " ( 2 words you are over fond of using )

    Like you, they also describe people who don't idolise their heroes as " haters " revisionists, idiots, and stupid.

    As stated most of them get wiser as they get older and see the error of their ways.

    You should try it sometime, because at the moment you come across as a frustrated wannabee, desperate to improve their worthless existence through someone else's actions.
     
    Foxy 01, Aug 1, 2015
    Foxy 01, Aug 1, 2015
    #50
  6. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Historical facts are interpreted by different people in different ways.

    Lots of people disagree with you; it is astonishing arrogance to believe they are all "too stupid" or "too biased" or "don't know enough about boxing" to understand their own feelings.

    Well, I believe we have five people in attendance at this forum that I know have been paid for writing about history and I believe that they would come in around 5-0 against you.

    I don't have an absolute finalised account of final facts in my head that cannot be contradicted under any circumstances, like you, if that's what you mean. I'm rather glad of it :D

    Perry, the discussion is ongoing in a thread you started. When this rather drab one drops off the front of the Classic forum, it will join the other Wills-Dempsey thread on page two. There is a book due out (in about a decade :lol:) that takes the opposite view and will paint Dempsey a duck; there will be another thread about Wills-Dempsey next month, and the month after.

    This will be mirrored anywhere they talk about boxing.

    You've misread the tide i'm afraid; Wills-Dempsey is the most rampant, alive strata of boxing history in existence. There is no end in sight for this discussion.
     
    McGrain, Aug 1, 2015
    McGrain, Aug 1, 2015
    #51
  7. burt bienstock

    burt bienstock Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Well I KNEW about Harry Wills since I was a youngster who lived next door to a trainer of the great John Henry Lewis the LH champion. He would talk to me and quiz me about boxing history
    and always talked about Dempsey and fighters of those days, nary mentioning Harry Wills, though he himself was black...
    Protest as you may, Dempsey and Wills signed for a bout that was canceled through NO FAULT of Dempsey nor Harry Wills...
    It is irrefutable....It occurred, but it doesn't fit your construct
    of Dempsey being afraid of Wills...As future events enfolded Wills
    a tall straight up fighter was kod by Paolino Uzcudun and
    soundly beaten by a young Jack Sharkey. Dempsey would have been a prohibitive favorite if they fought...Sure Wills should have
    fought Dempsey for the title. No doubt he a decent chap deserved a money shot....But though you obscure this fact ---
    they did SIGN for a bout which was canceled through NO FAULT of Dempsey or Harry Wills, painful as it might be to the detractors of Jack Dempsey who became a much beloved
    fighter and gentleman for the remainder of his long life. He was the "idol" of millions for a damn good reason who knew about
    him a heck more than his naysayers MAINLY on ESB almost a
    CENTURY later...cheers...
     
    burt bienstock, Aug 1, 2015
    burt bienstock, Aug 1, 2015
    #52
  8. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    His "naysayers" aren't "mainly on ESB". That is just where you mainly run into them.

    I haven't "obscured" the fact that Wills and Dempsey both signed a contract. Why are you saying that? What evidence to support this accusation exists?
     
    McGrain, Aug 1, 2015
    McGrain, Aug 1, 2015
    #53
  9. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    Horrible article rife with inaccuracies.

    Dempsey's name should be erased from the records.
     
    Seamus, Aug 1, 2015
    Seamus, Aug 1, 2015
    #54
  10. Perry

    Perry Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Very true Bert. An old argument that has already been resolved. actually there is evidence Dempsey signed to fight Wills more than once. No respected historian buys the idea Dempsey was in any way to blame for this bout not occurring.

    One point overlooked by those uneducated is it was very rare for a hwt champion in those times to pursue title fight with a challenger. The protocall was the challenger would pursue the champion. Here we have Dempsey going against the president of every champion before him working to make this fight happen. In the end Wills himself layed no blame on Dempsey. That in of itself tells everyone the bottom line. It's all old news except for the revisionists and haters who twist history to suit their needs. All complete bull.... In fact it could not be more of a bull.... Argument. An argument decided 90 years ago.
     
    Perry, Aug 1, 2015
    Perry, Aug 1, 2015
    #55
  11. Legend X

    Legend X Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    Dempsey should have fought an over-the-hill Wills in 1926. He probably could have extended his reign for another 2 or 3 years off the back of it. It's all about timing. It seems clear enough that Tex Rickard blocked the last chance of the fight being made in 1926 (against Dempsey's preferences, and those of his trainer apparently) which was ultimately unhelpful to everyone except Gene Tunney.
     
    Legend X, Aug 1, 2015
    Legend X, Aug 1, 2015
    #56
  12. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Yes, late on he would have crushed Wills and Greb I think.
     
    McGrain, Aug 1, 2015
    McGrain, Aug 1, 2015
    #57
  13. Perry

    Perry Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Numerous roadblocks, state commissions, promotors, Rickard, Kearns. All against a mixed racial hwt championship bout. Even when Dempsey shed his management and himself pursued this bout the promotors and commissions prevented the bout from occurring.

    Really for those not in tune with the history the fact that years later THEMAN himself, Wills, cast no blame on Dempsey is all you need to know. If anyone was in tune with every nuance of this history it was Wills. He cast no blame on Dempsey.
     
    Perry, Aug 1, 2015
    Perry, Aug 1, 2015
    #58
  14. burt bienstock

    burt bienstock Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    So Mc YOU ADMIT that Dempsey and Harry Wills SIGNED for a fight with a Michigan promoter which was CANCELLED through no fault of Dempsey nor Wills... So where's the BEEF ? Why doth thou protest and make Dempsey into an ogre repeating ad infinitum that Dempsey avoided Wills completely...It was and ISN'T true....
    P.S. I don't understand your logic Mc, saying "Dempsey naysayers aren't MAINLY on ESB..."That is where you run into them " ???
    We run into THEM [naysayers] because THAT'S where they ARE
    on ESB...
     
    burt bienstock, Aug 1, 2015
    burt bienstock, Aug 1, 2015
    #59
  15. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Uh, yeah, to my knoweldge i've "admitted" that several times on here. Is this your way of apologising for misrepresenting what I said in the above post so completely??

    An ogre repeaing ad infinitum?

    Look, I don't want to get into the Dempsey-Wills thing here. I've made no accusations of his ducking Wills and do not understand why you are attacking a position I haven't taken.

    My points is this and it is irrefutable:

    Dempsey didn't meet a single #1 contender during his entire HW reign until he met Tunney, who as arguably #1, and who thrashed him. Yes, I know Dempsey was past his prime.

    What I am saying is that when people realise the truth (or near truth) of the above, it quite often affects how they see Dempsey; the circumstances don't necessarily matter. It just becomes fact that Dempsey's reign is compromised by his failure to meet arguably the most dangerous white challenger to his title (Greb) and his most dangerous black challenger to his title (Wills). This affects how SOME people see Dempsey when they come to learn it.

    That is what I am saying, in a nutshell.


    They're on every forum on the internet. They're on every discussion group, behind closed doors or otherwise, that i've ever seen. There are plenty of "Wills ducked Dempsey" type articles out there and you can join in discussions on the subject on Yahoo boxing, the Observer, The Fight...it's everywhere. ESB is just where YOU run into them. If you were on BS, or CHB, they're there too. It's the way of it now.
     
    McGrain, Aug 1, 2015
    McGrain, Aug 1, 2015
    #60
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