Dempsey's greatness.

Jack was one of the most scientifically grounded hitters. I believe he would have adjusted his game to any era in terms of defense/movements, and would have been the top contender/champion anytime

 

Dempsey is certainly an all time great HW. It's hard to pick his best win, because do you base it on talent in the ring, or the way he fought and won. Because as far as talent you could say his wins against Carpentier and Gibbons were his best wins, but if you look at the display he put in the ring you could say his wins over Willard and Firpo were his best. And as far as being rated higher, if he would have fought and been successful against the top black fighters of the day, that would bump him up. But there will always be that question mark, because he and/or his management simply refused to fight the other side of the color line.

 

My view is that Dempsey's overall punching abilities, ability to take a lick and keep battling, and ability to press the fight earn him a solid place among heavyweight greats.
His placement would have been helped by more activity (partly because he would have been even more accomplished, but mostly because he would have likely have been shaper by the time Tunney came on), a defense against Wills (against whom I would favor Dempsey), and, as already implied, a tougher title defense against Tunney.
Slight criticisms are (as Gibbons said) you could see the punches coming, and also that Dempsey ate some hard rights. Moderating these criticisms are that, when he couldn't bomb a guy out, he could generally get inside and beat them up; and that most of those rights came with a 'high on the jaw -- oh, if (opponent 'X') had found Jack's chin!' comment .... well, you hear that comment often enough, you start to say, 'Hey, maybe it's not a coincidence those punches weren't finding Jack's chin'.
Pre-Tunney Dempsey didn't have to go long into a fight to often, but when he did (Brennan II, Gibbons) he didn't melt.
I'm not sure I would go so far as Ray Arcel and call Dempsey a stand-out among the greats; I don't say that Ray (and many others of that opinion) were wrong. It's just a little more than I feel I know.
I would have no hesitation in calling Dempsey commendable among the greats.

 

By all evidence he was great for his era, though it was pretty much an untested hypothesis. He certainly seemed to have the physical gifts and fighting instinct. He fits comfortably in my top 20.

Fulton really stands out during his rise as the other "name" guys were on bad runs or the downsides of their careers. That Fulton turned out to be a bit overrated later is not terribly consequential. However, in light of it, one could argue Sharkey as being Dempsey's best win.

Fight the best heavies available.

 

One of hwt boxing most highly skilled fighters. Amazing athleticism, speed, greatest infighter, one of boxings all time punchers, always fought on his toes ready to spring forward quickly for the ko, tremendous heart, will to win, determination and killer instinct. Like any puncher Dempsey could be hit but as Tunney and Gibbons testified Dempsey was always weaving with his chin tucked making it a difficult target.

 

Well, Dempsey is certainly the greatest Svengali, casting his spell over generations...

I still say Tony Tubbs would whip his ass.

 

He Svengalied every trainer, boxer, writer and historian who ever saw him fight? A bit of a stretch I would say. When a fighter as great as Sam Langford states...Dempsey is the greatest hwt I have ever seen....it means something. Then add the comments from Arcel, Stillman, Fleischer, Bimstein, Sharkey, Schmeling and Tunney. Many more.

Regarding Tubbs....he could probably beat many past champions over 4 rounds ala Meehan vs Dempsey. Obrien did the same to Johnson over 6 short rounds. All means nothing. Make the bout championship distance and a different story unfolds.

 

OK...

Sam Langford had a knack for speaking what whitey wanted to hear. Guess who Jack absolutely would not put on his opponent list? Sam Langford. He knew better, even against an old ass Langford.

Arcel was a delusional antiquarian by a certain point. I know it hurts to hear this but the more quips I read from this codger from days gone by, the more it is readily apparent. He was just another judgmental underachiever who fancied his halcyon days over the progress that brought better, more advanced, more skilled, more athletic boxers. Big surprise. But what is truly intellectually unforgivable is that you rubes fall for this ****.. hook, line and sinker.

Tubbs would destroy Dempsey. How do I know? I have eyes and I watch film.

 

Definitely an all time great. Good agressive,strong,fast and hard hitting fighter.


I woud place him in the bottom half of my top 15 all time heavies.

 

This is a totaly unwaranted statment.

 

Tubbs in reality was a bum. Came along in the type era we have now when it's easy to win a paper title and in turn it's easy to be called a contender. Anyone who thinks that a fighter who no expert from his time though was any good would have a chance against Dempsey....well....I seriously question their cognitive abilities.

Remove the greatest trainer in boxing history and remove probably it's greatest fighter. You still have a laundry list of great fighters, trainers, historians and writers that think along the same lines.

Name a single noted individual who stated Tony Tubbs is the greatest hwt I have ever seen....with a straight face mind you not as a joke.

 

Your really getting a lot of mileage out of that "possible" Sam Langford quote .. funny how you leave out his praise of Jennette and so many others ... as far as the others you quoted, you leave out DeForest , his own trainer who said Louis would have flattened Dempsey in four rounds .. some things have to be taken w a grain of salt ... do you also believe Tunney's written story , publically publish, which states how Dempsey would KO Charles, Walcott and Marciano on the same night in a few rounds total ? Then change into his red cape and leap tall buildings ... :rofl

 

He may or he may not but he'd be possibly the toughest guy Dempsey ever fought style wise and Tubbs was far from a bum ... he had a terrific amateur catreer and was a hell of a boxer ..