Dempsey's greatness.

I concur !
But I differ from some posters in that I see in Dempsey at his best, a
tough two fisted animal who beat everyone he fought from 1918 to 1923,when he richer than he imagined, went to Hollywood, satiated himself on silent screen starlets who threw themselves at his feet and in his bed...Tell me which one among us who was born into poverty, left home at 14, became rich as hell, wouldn't have done the same thing ? I doubt that this roughneck was thinking of his legacy whilst banging the likes of Clara Bow ? He Dempsey, did NOT fight less often than his heavyweight champion predecessors did...I have said this before We are all products of our time....But I differ from some ESB posters in seeing certain UNIQUE
qualities on film, that to me suggests that Jack Dempsey of his prime deserved the accolade of "man-killer, that was bestowed on him by writers of his time...Could Dempsey be outboxed ? Yessir...Could he be outfought
or outgamed at his best ? NO SIR !
P.S. If some on ESB, consider me an "apologist " if I defend his greatness alongst with thousands of his contemporaries, well I wear that mantle proudly...:good

 

I view Dempsey as a great fighter. Probably at his best as a contender right before winning the title. I dont have him beating Ali or Foreman guys like that. I dont think there is much evidence to support that.

To say that he squandered some of his talent after winning the title isn`t trashing him. Ray Arcel had said something along the lines of " Dempsey should have been the greatest heavyweight who ever lived" paraphrasing I dont have the exact quote in front of me. Ray was a stickler when it came to physical conditioning and living a clean type of life that a fighter he believed should live.

"to rest is to rust"

 

Anyone who reads anything about how tunney was selected as dempseys opponent cant escape the fact that he was a tuneup. Dempsey himself called Tunney a tuneup for Wills. few people thought tunney had a snowballs chance in hell with Dempsey. im not saying Tunney wasnt great. im saying he made a career out of calculatingly being in the "right" place at the "right" time. this hogwash that dempsey actively sought out the toughest challenge is just that: hogwash. he didnt. the dempsey is great argument is the same as the roy jones is great argument. you have to believe that ones greatness can be seen against sub par competition, i dont, hence my stance.

 

Boxing is one sport where how you win factors in as to how people remember you. Some fighters are spectacular performers while others just find a way to win.

Sluggers are usually remembered more fondly. They bring excitement.

 

Whether Dempsey was overated or underated one thing is certain. He is one of the most important if not the most important boxer who ever lived. He brought the game into the mainstream, brought big $$ {with help from Kearns}.

He also changed the style of heavyweight boxing in a way. His aggression and the fast pace of his assault made it more fan friendly IMO. You could say he brought the game into the modern age.

 

Come on Burt .. this is a hodge doge of an answer .. one one hand your admitting he deteriorated as a fighter because he did not fight but enjoyed a great life offered to him ... no one is disagreeing there but the cost of this lifestyle was his greatness as a fighter .. as far as out slugged, Firpo almost flattened him .. a big puncher but imagine what a better skilled big puncher would have done ? Likely finished him off ..

 

he, do U want me to have my posts notarized ? I admit Dempsey's opponents he fought were by and large inferior to Ali's, but as I stated a man doesn't pick his date of birth..After hooking up with Jack Kearns Dempsey beat everyone he fought from 1918 to 1923. A slugger and crowd pleaser like Dempsey was, was given to taken chances in the ring, but he WON at the end of his bouts....Even with Firpo, the hand cranked cameras
misses punches that dropped Firpo 7 times....But when Dempsey landed Firpo goes down like a shot...Though crude Firpo was, he was a bull of a man who Dempsey's short blasts drops him many times...Look how it took the dynamic Joe Louis,13 rounds in which he teed off on big ponderous Abe Simon before the referee stopped the bout in the 13th round with Simon on his feet still ? Dempsey was a ferocious puncher who as Jack Sharkey opined "could break a bone wherever he hit you...Give the guy credit for
his punching ferocity and unbridled fury when at his best....NO fighter was ever tougher in close...A nightmare for anyone when he was at his darn best...People who saw him at his best, knew his ability more than anyone on this forum I strongly believe...And I repeat once more, the heavyweight champions who preceded Dempsey, did not defend their titles any more often....On a H2H basis Jack Dempsey at his best I make him a terror to beat. Sue me !

 

If Dempsey called Tunney a tune-up for Wills, obviously he was doing so to placate public opinion that he should be fighting Wills.

Is this correct : You don't think Jack Dempsey and Roy Jones were great fighters ??

 

"public opinion that he should be fighting Wills"

Some public opinion. w/o scientific polls, who knows what the public as a whole thought.

As for Tunney being a tuneup, even if Dempsey and a bunch of sportswriters used that language, it doesn't make it true.

Tunney had the shortest betting odds at 11-5 of any of Dempsey's defenses. Firpo was 3-1. Miske 7-1. If Tunney was a tuneup, ALL of Dempsey's defenses were tuneups.

It is also an odd tuneup which draws the largest attendance in American boxing history and the largest gate up to that time.

As to the facts of the matter, Rickard was quoted in the press as saying he had Dempsey under contract and he couldn't fight Wills unless Rickard promoted it.

Does anyone really think Rickard was about to promote a Dempsey-Wills match?

 

Sports press opinion then.

 

There was no one like Dempsey up unto his point in time and no one as explosive until Joe Louis. Dempsey stepped up to the plate and exceeded everyone up until that point in time. He was DEMPSEY and not until Louis was there anyone who before of after Dempsey was a Superstar of his level

I think Dempsey would step up in any era and that is why I rate him # 4 Louis,Ali,Marciano,Dempsey

 

As demonstrated Dempsey was just about as active as all previous champions with the exception of Burns. In fact he was just as active as all hwt champions aside from Burns right up until Louis.

It was common once the championship was won to go on the road with that title...stage, theatre, vaudeville, public training sessions etc. The new media was silent movies so that's where Dempsey went. So again nothing new.

If you look at it objectively Dempseys comeback after losing the title was incredible....first knocking out with one punch the no 2 contender to secure a rematch with Tunney (in a bout he was losing but coming on strong). Don't buy that " he hit Sharkey in the ba..." as there was no way that last body blow hit that low...no way...at the belt line or slightly below but no way that low. Then in a rematch with Tunney coming within an eyelash of winning the championship again with one punch. Yes I know there were a volley of blows but that one hook did all the damage...the rest landed as Tunney was falling away from Dempsey to the canvas.

 

"Dempsey's comeback after losing the title was incredible"

I don't know if I would go so far as saying it was "incredible" but it was impressive and is the best argument for Dempsey's high ranking.

 

Gerry Cooney was undefeated from 77 - 82 ... who'd he fight ? Some journeymen, some faded names, some perfectly picked match ups ... but when he fought the best he was exposed.

I give Dempsey a tron of credit but don;t dare cal him the "best" when he did not prove that .. Sullivan fought as champ far more often. Jeffries fought more often and against the best opposition of his day .. Hart defended his title seven months after he won it but lost to Burns ... Burns defended the title 11 times in two years ... Johnson was persecuted across the globe and had exceptional difficulty making any fights post Jeffries .. Willard took the war off for the most part ... basically your facts are way off , simply using Corbett and Fitz as points to excuse Dempsey's inactivity ...

 

Dempsey fought more or less as often as champion as any other hwt champion aside from Burns until Louis.

Sullivans bouts were exhibitions as his title was not on the line until 5 years after he won the belt.