Dempsey's greatness.

There are not many champions in history who PROVED themselves "THE BEST" of an era beyond any dispute. Even most good and great champions can be doubted in that regard, because usually there are a few fighters they never fought, or challengers they beat a year or two too late .... there's always someone else to fight.

 

Sullivan purposefully avoided fighting the best contender...Peter Jackson, Johnson avoided fighting a host of black hwts each of which were the best contenders for his title.

Dempsey took great steps to make a bout with the top rated but black leading contender happen. This was done in a world rife with prejudice unlike anything we see today in NA and in a boxing community dead set not to repeat what occurred during the Johnson era.

 

How can anyone say such absolute nonsense such as "Dempsey took great steps to make a bout with the top rated black leading contender." That isnt even a myth because NOBODY ever said or believed that. Dempsey took ENORMOUS stops NOT to face Wills.

 

Complete BS. If he were indeed intent on not meeting Wills he could have stuck to the color line and that would be that. Instead he revoked the color line and said he would fight anyone, publicly stated he would and wanted to fight Wills and actively sought promoters who would set up the bout. Is it your claim that after doing all this at a time of prejudice so intense that it could not be understood in today's terms and at a time where the people who controlled boxing did not want a repeat of jack Johnson (rightly or wrongly) that Dempsey is to blame for something that he had no control? Even in old age when it did not matter any more Dempsey stated that he tried his best to make the bout happen and Wills concurred! The man himself who was wronged stated Dempsey was not at fault and who are you to state otherwise?

 

"I would have fought Wills," Dempsey told the New York Post's boxing writer, in 1953, "but nobody would promote it. When Wills challenged, Rickard would have nothing to do with the fight. He said he had instructions from Washington not to promote a mixed bout for the heavyweight"

Jack Johnson held the title from 1910 to 1915 and the big man's easy victories over a string of white contenders in that period had been unpopular--among whites, that is. Moreover, come the Twenties, the kkk was riding high, bed sheets flapping in the wind, and lynching fever was strong in the South. The bigger brains in Washington quite likely did fear that a mixed heavyweight fight would fan the flames.

The New York Boxing Commission, well this side of the Mason-Dixon line and with the eloquent James A. Parley to carry the gloves, seemed to work hard for the fight to happen. Dempsey always believed this stemmed more from a large respect for the black vote in New York than anything else. "The thing became a political issue," Dempsey told Buck. "the public was being told by the commission I had to fight Wills and those same people would tell me in private they knew the fight would never be allowed to happen."

Dempsey continued "I then tried finding other promoters but everything always fell through. Even though I wanted the fight to happen I could not find a way to make it happen."

Boxing sages better informed than you or I long ago acknowledged that Wills was poorly treated by white America, and long ago took all available evidence and exonerated Jack Dempsey from blame. Even Wills bio at the International Boxing Hall Of Fame points the accusing finger at the New York Governor while acknowledging Dempsey's willingness to meet Wills.

TIMELINE

Nov 1918 - Kearns refuses to allow Dempsey to fight Jeannette, citing the colour line.

July 1919 - Dempsey wins title and is attributed with having drawn the colour line.

July 1920 - Dempsey, still to defend his title for the first time, erases the colour line and says that Kearns had advised him that inter racial matches were bad for boxing. He announces himself ready to fight any man.

July 1921 - Jack Johnson, released from prison, stirs up a hornet's nest by challenging Dempsey. Dempsey responds by emphatically refusing to fight Johnson, but says "There is nothing to this talk about me fighting Jack Johnson. I am confident the public don't want this fight, and while I will govern myself to a large extent according the the public wishes, I can't see my way clear to fight Johnson or any other colored man." this statement obviously was to quell the concerns of Johnson getting a title shot which no one wanted to have happen. Dempsey takes this opportunity to pay Wills a glowing and public testimonial.

Feb 1922 - Dempsey publicly declares that there is no drawing of the colour line as far as Wills is concerned and that he wishes to fight him.

Feb 1922 onward - Newspapers continue to buzz with Dempsey v Wills and Dempsey never again draws the colour line. Meanwhile, State Athletic Commission Presidents, State Governors, owners of the New York Polo Grounds, etc., etc., do everything within their powers to frustrate attempts to make the fight happen.

These are the facts of the situation, and have been for the best part of ninety years.

 

Sure he would have. Well, that's enough proof for me!

Actually, lynchings were down in the 20's from the decades previous, but nice try. Yes, the KKK was riding high under the 2nd Klan, a more business type of approach, but I find it a bit reprehensible that you would link such a grave turn in US history to such a cowardly duck on the part of Dempsey Inc. They avoided Wills and fought a collection of lesser opponents (and lesser than Greb) because Wills or Greb might have killed the goose that laid the Golden Egg. Given the characters of Rickard and Kearns, I find it requires a giant leap of faith to believe they had anything but the bottom line in mind in their matchmaking.

Yeah, I'm sure there was no one willing to promote the fight, if not in the US, then perhaps in Cuba, France, Australia... How gullible are we supposed to be on this issue?

Boxing sages better informed than you or I long ago acknowledged that Wills was poorly treated by white America, and long ago took all available evidence and exonerated Jack Dempsey from blame. Even Wills bio at the International Boxing Hall Of Fame points the accusing finger at the New York Governor while acknowledging Dempsey's willingness to meet Wills.

He didn't need Kearns to duck Jeannette. His feet did just fine when a 40 year old Jeannette offered to spar the feral animal from the mining camps of Utah with dancers legs.

Talk is a wonderful thing.

More words. I would have given more credence to a Johnson match than matching up against the former flyweight Carpentier, a fight in which everyone knew the Orchid Man did not stand a chance.

OK, he verbally said he was not drawing the Colour Line. Well, then, let's just say that he was drawing the "Wills Line". Fancy words and supposedly heartfelt sentiments are fine for debating, but I look at the record when assessing fighters.

 

H, well stated. But whatever truth you post falls on deaf ears to today's "holier than thou" posters who think that they would not heed the fears of
Washington and the promoters of that time 90 years ago... After the terrible riots and racial deaths following the Jeffries/Johnson fight, there were VALID reasons for any American promoter to take a chance of a repeat of those horrendous riots following the Reno fight...Would these posters risk such a possibility were they promoters, to be accused of
money mongering if they promoted such a fight and deaths and riots
followed a Dempsey /Wills bout in 1920 ? I think not. But today it makes them feel superior and more noble to tar and feather boxing promoters and Jack Dempsey in particular, NINETY years later when Dempsey and
others cannot defend themselves ...I have said this many times. We are products of our times....Did Harry Wills get a raw deal, not getting a title shot at the heavyweight title ? Darn right ....Harry Wills ,to his bad luck was born 20 years too soon...But to his credit after he retired, Wills became a successful owner of real estate in Harlem, NY. On a personal note, as a youngster I saw Harry Wills, standing about 6 feet from me, at Stillman's
gym in the mid 1940s...Tall and ramrod straight, watching the action...
At that time I knew little of him except in his relationship with Jack Dempsey...How the wheels turn H ...cheers.:hi:

 

Kearns was dead against Dempsey getting married. He did.

Dempsey did what he wanted to do. Enough treating him like a child. He did not want to fight in WW1 and he didn't ... he didn't want to fight Wills, he didn't ..

Facts are facts.

 

1-It requires a promoter and great financial backing to put on a heavyweight title bout in 1920, along with the OK of the State Boxing Commission.
: it requires a marriage license or elopement to get hitched- look it up :
2- who the hell wants to fight in a World War ?
Did you protest when your idol Muhammad Ali ,shirked HIS DUTY to enter the Army ,whilst some other guy had to take his place ? ??? I know the answer...Dempsey didn't REFUSE, he claimed many dependents. He won...
3- You regurgitate the same B.S. saying that Dempsey DID NOT WANT to fight Harry Wills, though THEY DID SIGN for a bout with the Michigan
promoter Floyd Fitzsimmons as shown in numerous photos of the event.
But Fitzsimmons couldn't cough up the rest of the moolah, as money backers were hesitant to give money. And the bout was CANCELED...
THIS IS A FACT he, whether you like it or not....
P.S. Dempsey claimed his parents and siblings as dependents, and he won his case. Ali became a member of a violent organization, and REFUSED to serve, defying the government...What say you about that ? In World War 2
there was an actor named Lew Ayres who became a conscientious objector
claiming he was against "violence". But he DID NOT refuse to DRIVE an ambulance in Europe, risking his life in many heated battles, saving lives and winning many citations... Lew Ayres can be seen in the great WW2
movie "All Quiet on the Western Front ".
P.P.S. How come you say squat about Ali's refusal to serve in any capacity
when asked to ,but you give the shaft to your favorite whipping boy
Jack Dempsey ? Only on ESB folks...cheers ...

 

All very true Bert. Unfortunately for some on here, not all, truth is unimportant but revisionism and twisting of history is paramount.

Also Seamus...never wrote that lynchings in the 20s were more or less as compared to the decade before. The idea as you well know is that the kkk and what they were doing to blacks as well as the predominant racist viewpoint of most at that time, and the spectre of JJ made it very difficult to promote a black man fighting for the worlds championship. But ignore the facts and keep spouting all the lies you like...as you generally do.

 

Good god, some people are so willing to be lead around by the nose. Essentially what "Burt" and Houdini are saying is that they are willing to blindly believe anything Dempsey says (because all of those arguments are his and his alone) and nothing that proves anything to the contrary. If you honestly believe that there was NO promoter in the United States, much less the world, willing to promote that bout then the discussion can end here. I know for a fact youve seen previous arguments by Tywin, myself, and others which showed categorically that is not the case yet you continue to ignore. Fine. Dempsey is your hero, you dont want to believe anything negative about him. Fine. Its wrong but fine. Might as well be wearing a blindfold then. Dempsey drew the color line. Thats a fact. Deal with it. Had he fought a black guy you could say he withdrew it. He didnt. Saying "I withdraw the color line" and then continuing to blatantly DUCK your top challenger who is black sounds a bit disingenuous to me. And frankly whether you believe he DUCKED Wills because he was black or because he was scrared doesnt really matter, the end result is the same. Frankly its pretty apparent that he ducked Wills because he was black and could have won. Fine hero to put yourself behind...

 

Klomp2

I prefer to say he drew the Wills Line.

I do like how Dempsey is the one fighter who gets to decide and form his own legacy... outside of the ring. Something about the fox guarding the hen house.

 

Promoters along with managers set up fights. Fighters are not supposed to do so. Yet Dempsey did just that in an effort to make the fight happen. He failed. But to say because he failed he ducked Wills is plain false. Wills himself stated he knew Dempsey wanted the fight to happen and did not blame Dempsey so what more do you want????

 

:good

 

I "Burt", form my opinions these many years NOT on what Jack Dempsey has said...I might not be an "historian" but I have been an avid reader of boxing history since the early 1940s, and I have absorbed tons of opinions lo these many decades, and from the
hundreds of famous boxing writers, trainers and ex fighters experiences watching Dempsey and his times, I truly believe what I post has as much validity today on ESB
as anyone else on this esteemed boxing forum...For some posters who detest Jack Dempsey, and spout that Dempsey did not want to go into the Army in WW1, from out of nowhere, but cunningly hide the fact that Dempsey DID NOT REFUSE service in the
WW1 draft, he received a deferment on grounds of dependency as thousands of others
have done in WW1 and WW2...But NOT ONCE on ESB has these Dempsey detractors
ever mention the fact that Ali, REFUSED to serve in any capacity whatsoever...But of course he get's a pass while Jack Dempsey get's his ass kicked once more...
P.S. As a plain boxing devotee for so many years I was not genetically born to defend Jack Dempsey today on ESB. I have better things to do. But all my darn life I was for the underdog who cannot defend themselves, and so I defend a Jack Dempsey today.
P.S. One more thing, I am not a writer by a longshot, nor a boxing historian, but I have as much general knowledge of the 1920s ability's of fighters of that era, as anyone on this forum...And to say that Dempsey "conned" the mass amount of boxing experts of those days is sheer nonsense. And Jack Dempsey contrary to his ESB doubters feared no man in the ring...As tough a ******* that ever lived IMO...cheers...
He as others of those tough days were fighting for MONEY and not to address social issues of the day. Jack Dempsey EMPLOYED TOP black sparring partners. He years later helped George Godfrey and John Lester Johnson financially in their last days,and was as decent a gentleman that boxing produced. A beloved figure to millions from the time he retired to the day he died in 1983...If everything bad about him that SOME posters
attest as the truth on ESB , ninety years later, he was the greatest Svengali in history or a master hypnotist...cheers once again...