Dempsey's greatness.

I "Burt", form my opinions these many years NOT on what Jack Dempsey has said...I might not be an "historian" but I have been an avid reader of boxing history since the early 1940s, and I have absorbed tons of opinions lo these many decades, and from the
hundreds of famous boxing writers, trainers and ex fighters experiences watching Dempsey and his times, I truly believe what I post has as much validity today on ESB
as anyone else on this esteemed boxing forum...For some posters who detest Jack Dempsey, and spout that Dempsey did not want to go into the Army in WW1, from out of nowhere, but cunningly hide the fact that Dempsey DID NOT REFUSE service in the
WW1 draft, he received a deferment on grounds of dependency as thousands of others
have done in WW1 and WW2...But NOT ONCE on ESB has these Dempsey detractors
ever mention the fact that Ali, REFUSED to serve in any capacity whatsoever...But of course he get's a pass while Jack Dempsey get's his ass kicked once more...
P.S. As a plain boxing devotee for so many years I was not genetically born to defend Jack Dempsey today on ESB. I have better things to do. But all my darn life I was for the underdog who cannot defend themselves, and so I defend a Jack Dempsey today.
P.S. One more thing, I am not a writer by a longshot, nor a boxing historian, but I have as much general knowledge of the 1920s ability's of fighters of that era, as anyone on this forum...And to say that Dempsey "conned" the mass amount of boxing experts of those days is sheer nonsense. And Jack Dempsey contrary to his ESB doubters feared no man in the ring...As tough a ******* that ever lived IMO...cheers...
He as others of those tough days were fighting for MONEY and not to address social issues of the day. Jack Dempsey EMPLOYED TOP black sparring partners. He years later helped George Godfrey and John Lester Johnson financially in their last days,and was as decent a gentleman that boxing produced. A beloved figure to millions from the time he retired to the day he died in 1983...If everything bad about him that SOME posters
attest as the truth on ESB , ninety years later, he was the greatest Svengali in history or a master hypnotist...cheers once again...

 

Burt come on already , it's embarrassing .. if you defended the underdog you'd never dismiss the fact that Dempsey was manipulated into deferment in WW1 by smart, connected management ... over 4.3 million men fought in the war from the US and over 100,000 were killed ... Dempsey was hardly any more hard up than most that lacked the connections to get out and it's an insult to say otherwise.... this is why he was labeled a slacker by so many and why he was basically disliked most of his championship career .. you love Dempsey , great and power to you but to make your devotion seem like a noble cause over a man who was a draft dodger and who drew the color line is hardly supporting an underdog ... call him a tough guy, call him a hell of a fighter fine but no one was more aware of Jack's quilt than Jack himself and getting a cushy job in WW2 as celebrity trainer and beach appearances just where cameras happened to be or hiring minority sparring partners does not change that. In addition by claiming Dempsey was not responsible for either decision means you must feel he was mentally challenged ...

 

An investigation found that Dempsey did not serve in WWI due to a deferment. The state tried to prove that there was no deferment granted. So a trial ensued to the delight of newspapers. Deferments were granted if the man was shown to be a main provider for someone else. The states case tried to prove that Dempsey supported no one.

Well along comes Dempsey’s former prostitute wife Maxine. He was married to her at the time of the deferment but has since divorced. Maxine was coerced by both her brothel house mates and others to say that Dempsey never sent her money in an attempt to “shake” him.

What was proven was that Dempsey not only sent her thousand’s of dollars but he was also the sole support for his separated mother and father as well as his sick sibling. He was acquitted angry veterans of WWI dubbed him a “Slacker” because he did not serve in the war.

Those are the facts. Twist them as you will.

 

If what your target Dempsey did in WW1,getting a deferment was illegal he would have been jailed. Was it noble to claim he was a sole provider of his family ? Who can tell ?.. But the thing that get's my dander up is a poster comes out of the woodwork spouting this question and assertion that "Dempsey did not want to go into the Army in WW1 " is irrelevant to our thread "Dempsey's greatness ", except to show his utter contempt for Dempsey that hold's no bounds...I have been on ESB 3 years and I have never heard any criticisms of Ali who REFUSED to serve in ANY capacity his country...Not one peep. Dempsey I am certain, if his deferment was refused, would have served in the Army...I served in the Navy as a youngster ,whilst some guys from the neighborhood avoided service due to dependency...We were envious of them but we accepted their good luck...
But to repeat once again, to bring up this subject out of nowhere, tells me
what visceral hatred the poster has for Dempsey...Of course they dare not or don't bring up Ali's refusal to serve in any capacity...Hmmm, I wonder why ? And I thought a boxing forum was about fighters in the ring
performing and not to bring up agenda's. I was wrong....

 

I see the tired old "Harry Wills debate" has resurfaced.

I'm still waiting for the list of SERIOUS OFFERS FROM REPUTABLE PROMOTERS than Dempsey did receive for such a contest.

Let's see the list of real and actual offers for a Wills that Dempsey outright refused.

There's no point saying "Oh, he could have fought Wills in Cuba or London for a record payday" .... yeah, I could have fought Mike Tyson on the sixth moon of Saturn for $10 billion but no one offered.

" ... but, but ... the fight sells itself" atsch

Come on, esteemed historians, let's see the actual list of instances where Dempsey turned down massive paydays from real promoters for a Wills fight.
And then let's compare what paydays he actually got against lesser opponents.

 

So TRUE U. And what a universal crime it is that the dead cannot defend itself...? They the pot shot artist's, give blasphemy a new name...:good

 

Why do you keep bring in Ali ?

I keep circling back for one reason and that is you cannot defend the obvious except to say the critics of Dempsey have blind agendas. There is no hated for Dempsey at all by me ... I simply don't idol worship him either ... you still cannot point to one filmed fight that backs up your claim of his all time greatness ... as far as the poster your referring to I'd be careful as he may be the most knowledgable boxing scholar on the planet ... I'm not close to his weight class ... be ready if he reads it ....

 

I'm not even saying he didn't receive these amazing unrefusable offers to fight Wills .... I'm just asking for the details that are never forthcoming.

If people are going to claim or suggest Dempsey did everything in his power to AVOID Wills, and went to great ends to get out of fighting him ... and that it was nothing to do with 'race politics' or promoters etc... but it was simply and only Dempsey running scared and point blank wriggling out of a Wills fight ... then let's see the solid evidence of when Dempsey turned down the serious big bucks from serious promoters to take the fight.

Present the case.

 

The only heavyweight champion in history to avoid fighting his top contender for his entire reign, a larger man who had fought and defeated much better opposition than he ever did. Period. That is the fact, open and shut. Any argument based on excuses and not assduming responsibility for ones actions is very weak to me ...

To me this has not ever been about if Dempsey was a formidable, terrific fighter ... it's about all time greatness ...

 

He never was presented with an offer that's the bottom line. Its not the job of the hwt champion of the world to set up fights....never has been and never will be. Yet Dempsey tried to do just that...he failed and Dempsey admitted he failed but to then jump to a conclusion 90 years later that Dempsey ducked Wills is a flat out lie. Despicable.

 

he, not only are you wrong on asserting that I "idolize" Dempsey because I DEFEND him. You even have the wrong poster. And I have no fear of anybody who I believe to be incorrect on a subject...heG if you believe it is
fine and dandy to bring up the subject out of context when discussing the
boxing merits of Jack Dempsey on this thread that "Jack Dempsey didn't want to go in the Army" ,is not piling on, then why even go on.
And I repeat that I have more faith in the wisdom of boxing people by the thousands who saw Dempsey at his best and his successor's, than I do
with anyone writing today...To use an analogy, I have more faith in oldtimers who heard the great Enrico Caruso sing at the Met, than some critics of today hearing him on some scratchy old records...I will end this post on a musical note...

 

I find the "did Dempsey really want to fight Wills" argument beside the point.

He didn't fight Wills, his best contender. He didn't fight Greb. He lost to Tunney.

These were probably the three best out there while he was champion.

In my judgement, it makes it hard (impossible for me) to rate him above those who did fight and defeat the best out there.

The win over Sharkey is in retrospect his most impressive, but I can't take it too far as Sharkey was a headcase who could manage to blow fights anytime during his career and became champion only via a very dubious decision.

 

No, it's not a "FACT" that Wills "fought and defeated much better opposition then he ever did" .... that's entirely a subjective judgment.

Also, I'm not disputing that the absence of Harry Wills on Jack Dempsey's record is a mark against him ... I'm simply asking those who INSIST that it was all down to Dempsey being scared or reluctant or 'making great efforts' to avoid such a match to provide the evidence that shows that.

Well, people are putting FULL responsibility on Dempsey not for any particular 'action' , something that he did .... they are blaming him for something he didn't do (ie. fight Harry Wills).

If the lack of a Jack Dempsey-Harry Wills fight was fully the responsibility and devious work of Jack Dempsey it has to be shown how, when and where Dempsey managed this feat.

 

That's fair.
The problem is, there a people here who aren't satisfied with making such a reasonable judgment.

 

1 -He Dempsey didn't fight Harry Wills though they did sign a contract, and you to buttress your agenda, refuse to take in account of the refusal of promoters to match a white/black heavyweight title bout those days following the riots and deaths that ensued following the Jeffries/Johnson Reno bout...You sir refuse to face reality of the past events...
2-again to bring up the Tunney bouts when Dempsey did NOT fight in 3 years. Three years...Without a tune-up, but you still bring up that old bromide once again...Dempsey was a slow shell of himself ,as Ray Robinson was after a 3 year layoff when he took a battering from a good
journeyman Ralph Tiger Jones...You know sir we are talking about all fighters in their primes....
3- yes he Dempsey, did not fight my favorite fighter of all times Harry Greb
that is a FACT I agree...But I could understand the reluctance to fight
the Pittsburgh Windmill by Dempsey's braintrust, as it would have been a No Win situation. If Greb did the unexpected and won in a 12-15 round bout, Dempsey would have lost the HWt title and all the future earnings
for him and his entourage...If Dempsey as the bigger man and betting favorite stopped the frenetic MW Greb, his critics would crow," why does he pick on smaller men", as Dempsey did with the LH Georges Carpentier ?.
P.S. I know Greb twice gave Jack Dempsey a hard time in their sparring sessions. I am well aware of that, but I have seen at Stillman's gym
sparring partners giving a lacing to top fighters prepping for main event fights at MSG...cheers...