Dempsey's greatness.

Not qualified to fight for the hwt championship?

Miske was highly rated and termed an uncrowned champion. The 18 months previous he beat Brennen, Meehan, Crowler and Flynn.
Brennen was also highly rated and a leading contender.
Firpo koed the prior champion, Brennen, beat Smith twice...he was a top contender.
Carpentier was considered one of boxings greatest in 1921and lt heavyweight champion. Carpentier was one in a long line of lt heavyweight champions to get a shot at the heavyweight title.
Tunney beat Gibbons and challenged Wills to a fight winner fighting Dempsey...Wills refused. Tunney was again a top contender when Dempsey fought him.

 

:nut

 

laugh if you wish, but after Jack Dempsey ko'd Billy Miske in 3 rounds in September, 1920, Billy Miske was on a roll going the next 20 bouts without a defeat, beating,Tommy Gibbons, Bill Brennan, koing Fred Fulton 1rd,
Willie Meehan, 1 rd, Jack Renault, amongst others. He was apparently in
remission from his kidney disease during this time... When Mr Dempsey was at his best, he was what thousands of boxing people called him the greatest offensive fighter up to his time...Like Joe Louis, Dempsey had some trouble with smaller targets who could move with defensive skills, but bigger sluggers were like catnip to Dempsey and Joe Louis...:deal

 

Jesus, folks. Do you own books? Perhaps consider reading one on Jack Dempsey or the one Clay Moyle wrote on Miske.

Billy Miske was on death's door for Dempsey's title defense with Bright's Disease. He was barely able to train and was a walking corpse for the fight but he had car dealership that went tits up and need scratch. Dempsey supposedly did it as a favor, but then when he had Miske all in and reeling in the third, he insisted on cold ****ing Miske from behind! Of course, Dempsey's eternal house guest and trained ******, Daugherty, did nothing about this.

From Dempsey:

"My first defense of the world heavyweight championship title was on Labor Day, 1920, against a dying friend of mine. I knocked him out because I loved the guy -- Billy Miske.

It happened in Benton Harbor, Mich. This was the third and last time I fought Billy.

He was dying of Bright's disease. I didn't know his condition was as bad as it was. All I knew was that he begged me for the fight. He was broke and needed a good payday so that he could rest and regain his health."

With friends like this, who needs enemies?

 

For a dying fighter he probably had the greatest record of any contender post his title fight with Dempsey. He went 23-1-1 after that loss beating Brennen, Weinart, Renault, Roper, Smith, Meehan, Fulton and Gibbons. His lone loss was a decision to Gibbons. So you claim he was on deaths door for Dempsey but perfectly ok enough to go 23-1-1 after that loss?

It was true that Miske was diagnosed with Brights disease but that did not mean he was on deaths door at the time of the diagnosis or at the time of his bout for the championship. Plenty of newspaper accounts of Miske training very hard for his bout with Dempsey.

Next thing you will be telling everyone is Dempsey was not an all time great fighter!

 

I suggest you read up on nephritis. As I understand, it manifests in bouts with extreme discharge of bodily proteins by way of the kidneys. The bouts come and go but eventually, untreated, lead to death. I believe I read it was still the number 10 cause of death in the world. Regardless, Miske believed he was checking out sooner than later, had just went bankrupt via a car dealership and a big house. He needed a payday. Observers noted him as not being sharp or quick and several sparring sessions were cancelled before the fight due to his shape. Afterward, he did recover and beat some good fighters before multiple recurrences led to his demise.

 

Here is a newspaper report prior to the bout. Miske seems in good shape. I'm told that Brights disease can go into remission and then reoccur.

Here's some coverage pertaining to the last fight between Dempsey and Miske:

September 4, 1920 – Beloit Daily News
Dempsey To Get Stiff Go When He Meets Miske
St. Paul Heavyweight Confident He Can Last Bout With Champ
Has Hopes That Luck Will Break For Him And Return New Belt Holder – If Fit
Benton Harbor, Mich., Sept. 4 – Billy Miske didn’t come to Benton Harbor to take a licking and pick off the loser’s end of a purse.
Lurking in his head is the glimmering hope that he may knock himself into a title on Labor Day. He is confident of staying the 10 rounds with Jack Dempsey because he has done so twice before, once at St. Paul and the other time at Philadelphia. That was back in 1918.
As is the case with all contenders who meet champions, he is taking a gambling chance that at some moment in the fight his big opportunity will come and the dope will be reversed in his favor.
His two lessons from Dempsey have given him confidence, for the stood the gaff in both – a thing that few others have done.
Miske’s new found health is the chief buzz of conversation at his training stand. The camp is located three-quarters of a mile up the road from the battle arena where Dempsey is banging away at Bill Tate and “Panama” Joe Gans. It is the same layout where champion Benny Leonard prepared for his fight with Charley White.
Ike Berstein, Miske’s trainer, is in charge. There is a splendidly equipped gym. The ring is staked off beneath the shade of thickly follaged trees, for which Michigan is famous.
There is a whole flock of sparring partners there to work on, but none of them hardly measure up to the mark. Jack Heinen, an ex-gob and the biggest of the lot, usually gets floored two or three times daily. Heinen was in Willard’s camp at Toledo and he has boxed Jack Johnson. He says that Miske is the new Stanley Ketchel with the combined punch of Jack Johnson and Jess Willard.
Miske made a good appearance in his workouts. Wearing a padded headgear he bounces into the ring like a lightweight and begins to sock. If he fights that way on Labor Day Dempsey is going to be both surprised and pleased. The champion has it figured out that Miske is going to “pull and haul” when the Labor Day dingdong comes off.
Miske is the picture of health now. He has had a slight kink in his spine since boyhood. It has handicapped his ring career in the past. Recently St. Paul specialists jiggled the troublesome misplaced cartilage back into is normal position.
“Billy hasn’t really grown then as some have believed,” says Jack Reddy, Miske’s manager. “He is now able to stand erect and it has increased his stature about an inch. Also he has gained about 20 pounds in weight. He is a living testimony of the chiropractic treatment for spinal trouble.”
When Miske boxed Dempsey at St. Paul he weighed 175 pounds and 176 ½ at Philadelphia. Ther eis no question but that the Miske of two years ago and the Miske of today are very different individuals.
He does not deny that he begged out of the proposed war benefit bout in New York City during the war.
“I was sick at the time” he says, “and knew that Dempsey would certainly knock me out. It would have hurt my entire career as a boxer and I felt that I was justified in not going on with him at that time. It’s different now. I did not come to Benton Harbor to get licked.”
Miske smiled as he thought of all the things that a crown would mean to him.
He’ll have his supporters when he climbs in the ring on Labor Day. His friends dope it that he is a new Miske, that he has stayed on his feet twice against the Salt Lake slammer and that the long layoff of the champion is in the favor of the contender.
Most of the bookings will be stay bets and various forms of wagers on a knockout. None would hardly take the hazard that the title will change hands.
Miske and his friends to not think he is going to be toppled on Labor Day.



Blair’s account of the fight:
“The first round saw Miske moving fast and sticking his jab in Dempsey’s face, while Jack went right to work on Billy’s midsection to slow Miske down. It worked alright as the body punches hurt Billy badly, slowing him up and weakening him.
As the second round started, Billy knew he wouldn’t be able to battle Dempsey over a long route so he threw caution to the wind. He came out throwing some heavy leather at Dempsey. Miske’s reckless attack surprised Jack and he fought back viciously, anf for half of the round it was a war. As the two separated from a clinch, Miske scored with a solid right that stunned the champion. Dempsey came back with a terrific right under Miske’s heart, and down went Billy, but he managed to struggle to his feet and made a valiant effort to hold off the charging Dempsey. He somehow finished the round.
Jack came out for the third round bent on a knockout, however, Miske made one last try. A sharp left hook landed flush on Dempsey’s jaw, stopping his forward progress. Jack was like a wounded tiger as a succession of lefts and rights landed on a defenseless Miske who was on the ropes, hurt and dazed. As referee Dougherty tried to get between the two, Dempsey lashed out with a sharp right to Billy’s head. Miske went limply to the canvas where Dougherty counted him out.
Suddenly Dempsey, the scowling animal, felt compassion for the prone Billy Miske. Dempsey reached down and helped get Billy to his corner where he stayed until Miske recovered and was able to leave the ring on his own. The fight had drawn 15,000 fans who paid a gate of $134,904.
Miske received a purse of $25,000 for the fight, but it didn’t last long once Billy got home and paid off several overdue bills.”

 

Referee after the fight...
I am convinced no other hwt could have beaten Miske today. He was in excellent condition. I cannot but admire Miske. He is a game fighter and can assimilate great punishment. Those body blows from Dempsey were terrific. Dempsey proved himself as a champion of champions. He is an incredible athlete. He has everything a great fighter should have. He is lacking nothing.

Miske after the fight
I am greatly disappointed as I felt I would emerge victorious today. I was in great shape. That body blow In the first round really hurt me. I felt it all over. Dempsey is a wonder as a fighter that's all I can say.

Dempsey
I hit him with everything I had with that right hand to the body in the first round. I expected him to fall to the floor and be counted out.

 

I see a bunch of pre-fight ballyhoo to sell tickets. Even Dempsey knew he was sick and needed money. To deny this is a bit silly and beyond revisionist.

Here's an article that well displays the wise guys' take on this "bout"...

"Another Good Laugh

From press accounts it might be taken that Billy Miske, challenger of Jac Demsey's crown, is having a hard time licking his sparring mates, let alone Dempsey. His co-workers so roughed the challenger yesterday that he was forced to pull up for repairs. Another indication of what a frost the bout will be comes in the constant reports from the Dempsey camp of the great fear and respect Dempsey has for Miske. Which is a lot of bunk to try and make the people believe Miske has a chance. The whole thing is a joke, and Dempsey is making it all the more laughable by incessantly trying to laud the virtues, skill and fistic accomplishments of his foe to be, who only short time back was sick in bed."

 

To deny that Billy Miske AFTER Dempsey kod him in 3 rounds in 1920 went undefeated in his next 20 bouts was at this time fighting better than at anytime in his career does not hold water...His Bright's Disease was in remission which made him a formidable
fighter able to beat Tommy Gibbons, Bill Brennan, koing Jack Renault, Willie Meehan, 1 rd, and Fred Fulton in 1 round also... Miske was going great guns about this time and
eventually his disease came back to kill him...It is so obvious that whatever Dempsey accomplished in his career ,which made him the idol of millions, has to be belittled by a few on this forum...
P.S. as a small example by these same few posters today, they disparage Jack Dempsey
because before he became champion, Dempsey lost a 4 round decision to that roly-poly
spoiler Willie Meehan. But not a peep from these same posters that a certain chap by the name of Sam Langford, also was beaten by Willie Meehan in 4 rds. Double standard ?
HELL YES..

 

Dempsey was on the way up vs Meehan, I dont hold that against him, Meehan was the first king of the 4 rounders in his hey day, perhaps a better Butterbean of his day maybe? It was 4 rounds,

I like Dempsey, just wish he clean out his era is all.

 

And so do I....And so do I...But it is what it is...We cannot judge the
standards of today with the times so different 90 years before...Dempsey and Harry Wills DID sign once for that bout for a Michigan promoter
Floyd Fitzsimmons...The signing photos are well documented and has been seen by millions and on ESB a while back. The fight fell through because Fitzsimmons couldn't come up with the rest of the dough and he lost a large deposit...Every reliable promoter in the USA was wary of sponsoring this bout between a black and white heavyweight title bout, because of the violent riots and deaths in America that ensued after the Johnson/Jeffries fight in Reno...This is a fact, and we cannot deny this truth I have read
from boxing magazines from the 1930s on...Harry Wills deserved a shot at the title. Sure did, but he was born 20 years too soon and fate decreed
otherwise...Dempsey would most certainly have won this match as he loved bigger, slower men, as did his great successor my man Joe Louis, 20 years later...So who does that leave that would have a chance in 1920-23, against the prime heavy fisted Manassa Mauler ? Some posters claim my idol, and I feel the best P4P fighter who ever lived Harry Greb...Greb
in a few sparring sessions with larger gloves outsped Dempsey and
frustrated Dempsey so much that jack Kearns told Greb to scram the camp..All documented, but I as posted before, have seen at Stillman's gym
sparring partners kick the hell out of star main eventers for a couple rounds
who would have little chance to do that in 10-15 round main events...
Besides as I have posted Dempsey fighting the Mw Harry Greb was a "NO WIN" situation. If perchance the great Greb, with smaller gloves could avoid the 20 or more pound heavier Dempsey's powerful blows and win the title, there goes Jack Kearns and Tex Rickards, money making machine,
Dempsey's heavyweight crown. And if Dempsey catches up to Greb and stops Harry, the public could say "why do you pick on MWs again as with Carpentier ". So I could understand Jack Kearns refusing that bout...Though
how much I admire Jack Dempsey, that little "seven year itch" as Harry Greb was once described, was an astounding fighter and tough S.O.B.
So aside from Wills and the smaller Greb, Dempsey beat everyone he fought, with a style that made him the most exciting sports figure of the roaring 1920s, and the roughest, toughest heavyweight til this day I believe...But it must remembered he was a product of his times, as we are of our times...cheers.:hi:

 

Miske was in shape for Dempsey and this talk about him being at deaths door is BS, he took longer to die than James Cagney in his best films . His record after the Dempsey fight is superb.

 

I don't know what is so difficult to understand here, folks... Miske was bed ridden before the fight. in a state of aggravation. This is corroborated by the press and by Dempsey himself. Afterwards, the disease went into remission for a time. It finally caught up to him.

"the disease begins in an insidious manner, progresses very slowly, with more or less complete periods of remission, and with periods of aggravation characterized by a symptomatic complexus which has no resemblance to that of parenchymatous nephritis, and in which the kidney, throughout all periods of the disease, shows the lesions of interstitial nephritis, and ends fatally in renal atrophy."

 

But he HAD to be in remission to win 20 or so bouts without a LOSS.. His record starting after Dempsey kod Miske in 3 rds in 1920, was more impressive than any time before...
How can any impartial fight fan not agree that were he at death's door, Miske could not have been near unbeatable for the next 20 bouts, following the Dempsey Ko.?
That is what makes fatal diseases so insidious, a person can feel great for a time, but
it comes back twice as strong. And so with Billy Miske, who along with the brave Barney
Ross, were I believe boxing's two greatest hero's...But at least Barney Ross had a motion picture named "****** on my Back", starring Cameron Mitchell...Why hasn't
someone write a screenplay about Billy Miske. ? An authentic hero if there ever was one...