Dempsey's greatness.

There is no doubt Miske was sick and had a terminal illness. The question is was the condition in remission at the time he fought Dempsey. My wife who is a RN tells me that one of the symptoms of kidney disease is weight loss.

Was Miskes weight low that could point to a sick bedridden fighter? Let's see.....He was 187 when he fought Dempsey and again 187 when he fought and beat Gibbons in 1922 at a time we can assume his condition was in remission. His weight during his career ranged from 158 to 190. So no unusually low weight when he fought Dempsey. In fact a weight of 187 pounds was prime weight for Miske.

There is article after article discussing Miskes training camp....everything from the NY Times to local papers and in-between. Aside from that one lone short snippet you posted I don't see any mention that Miske was not training or was in bad condition. Why do you jump to the conclusion that one snippet is correct and every other article is false? I am sure there were days during camp were Dempsey as well as Miske did not look great....everyone has good and bad days.

Miske's weight is perfect, he looked fit and trim, articles concerning his training predominantly praise his work. I say his disease was in remission when he fought Dempsey in 21.....at least all signs point in that direction.

 

What was Miske a hero of Burt? If you say he was all fine and dandy when he fought Dempsey then what the hell makes him so heroic or his story so dramatic? The press at the time knew Miske was sick. Some called the fight a sham, and discussed his condition. Others did what was not uncommon in those days which was to ballyhoo the fight and help sell tickets. When Miske fought Dempsey he had fought only once in over a year. A pointless KO over the hapless Jack Moran. In his previous six fights prior to Dempsey he was 1-2-2. After his clear points loss to Levinsky in Ohio for the LHW title he retired due to his health concerns. This was well known and discussed at the time. Whe he reemerged a year later it was because he was broke and needed money. He lied and said that he retired due to spinal problem that was corrected and he was ready to take on the world. While it training for Dempsey, a shot he didnt deserve and should never have recieved, it was noted that he his skin had a sickly grey complexion. Thats a fact, go check it out. After the fight it was called a joke and most agreed that Greb's undercard bout should have been the main event or that Greb should have been Dempsey's opponent. Miske did go on a run after Dempsey but we arent talking about what happened AFTER Dempsey. It doesnt work like that. What is important is that Miske got his shot at the title with a 1-2-2 record coming out of his sick bed. Maybe Dempsey should have fought him later when Miske's illness seemingly went into remission (which is a likely scenario) Im sure he would have done it if he felt Miske wasnt too threatening...

The fact of the matter is that Miske, despite his glossy winning record (at least one of which was suspected to have been fixed), was not considered a factor in the division after he retired in early 1919 and that includes his title shot against Dempsey. Hes a footnote.

 

Why do you guys keep saying he beat Gibbons, like its some feather in his cap.

When he fought Gibbons in 1922 he was losing every round in a one sided fight when he was awarded the decision in a controversial fashion due to an unintentional foul by Gibbons.

Nobody, and I mean nobody, considered that a "win" for Miske. It was a garden fight and as such well publicized, because of this that "win" pretty much ended any delusions he had of being a contender. If you look at the St. Paul and Minneapolis papers for their careers Tommy was considered to have been Miske's master and to have had his number, including this fight.

 

That's not the point. Weight loss is a symptom of kidney disease. Miskes weight was his prime weight when he fought Dempsey in 21...187 pounds. No weight loss. He was that same weight during the time he went 23-1-1 after he fought Dempsey when most will say he was in remission. If he was indeed critically sick when he fought Dempsey for the title it does not show up in his weight which it should have since weight loss is a major symptom of Brights disease.

 

That's bull****. You are stating categorically that because Miske weighed 187 he was not ill. Get real Dr. Houdini. Way to diagnose a man based solely on his weight 93 years after the fact... Ive got a better idea: How about we take Miske's word, his daughter's word (who I interviewed for my book), his wife's word, Dempsey's word, and just about everyone else who was actually involved at the time and admitted that Miske was sick and that the fight was a charity case. Frankly, if you want to play devils advocate and pretend Miske was not ill, and for shits and giggles pretend he was never ill to begin with, then explain to me how a man with no credible wins in over a year prior to the fight deserves a shot at the title. In fact, what win can you point to for Miske prior to Sept 1920 as garnering him contender status? Was it his 15 round win over Brennan who was coming off back to back losses to Greb? Was it his fight with Meehan who was also coming off a one sided loss to Greb? Dempsey's apologists are so eager to defend his crappy record as a champion by struggling to argue that Miske wasnt actually at deaths door when he fought for the title that they completely lose sight of the fact that Miske had done absolutely nothing to deserve the title shot he got. At least a fighter like Jesse Ferguson, who was a joke of a title challenger, actually won a meaningful bout to get his shot. Miske didnt and hadnt in a long time. And thats the point when people say he was not a credible challenger. He wasnt. Whether its because he was dying (which he was) or because he didnt have the resume (which he didnt) matters little, the end result is that Dempsey took the fight knowing it was a gimme. He admitted it. Everyone else knew it. Only his fans (who I often suspect spend a lot of time watching professional wrestling as well) would argue otherwise.

 

He was a hero, not because I say so, but because many historians who knew him including George Barton a veteran distinguished boxing writer,
wrote about billy Miske's bravery after being diagnosed with Bright's Disease in 1918, carried on bravely, suffered terribly, went into remission
for a few years ,won 20 bouts without defeat since Dempsey kod him in 1919, and in 1923 suffering horrendous pains begged his mgr for one last fight, so his family could have money for Christmas...He fought the last bout and his family had money for a Christmas celebration, and Miske died soon after in a hospital just before New Year...Yes, he was a BRAVE man and I first heard about this about 20 years ago in a TV short documentary
bio that complimented Billy Miske for his act of final love for his family...
And what a movie Billy Miske's life would make...?
remember a short piece on TV extolling his bravery...

 

He was gravely ill with a terminal illness that went into remission at some point in time. I have always doubted how ill he could have been at fight time. He went on one heck of a streak after losing that bout beating one contender after another. Look up Brights disease...weight loss is a major symptom....Miske weighed what he always weighed when he fought Dempsey in 21. If he was on deaths door why was he at fighting weight?

 

Miske was ill.
But again, no one else was knocking him out. Just Dempsey.

 

As long as people make up their minds based on facts, it's not a problem.
I can't remember seeing any reported offers for a Wills-Dempsey fight that really jumped out as being too good to refuse, considering Dempsey's other options. But I might be wrong. I'd like to see what's out there. I haven't made up my mind on this at all. There may have been something in 1926 to do with B.C. Clements.

It's less to do with "my liking" and more about discussing facts.
When people make such strong statements as "Dempsey did everything in his power" or "went to great lengths" to AVOID getting in the ring with Harry Wills, I'd expect to see some strong supporting facts. Those are strong statements, and made by knowledgeable postors such as klompton or seamus.
So there's either something strong to back those statements up ..... or they are being made just to provoke and excessively denigrate.

 

Dempsey already did the math.
I'm guessing he had good reason to believe he could make a record amount of easy money fighting Carpentier again, in France.
Which is obviously a better option than fighting Wills for similar money (or less).

 

"fighting Carpentier again . . . is obviously a better option than fighting Wills for similar money"

If making money w/o risk is the object--true.

If securing all-time high ranking among the greats is the object--not true.

 

Absolutely. My whole point with a subtle alteration. He knew over the long run he would make more money by not fighting Wills. Highest reward for lowest risk while retaining the strap.

And again, I am not saying that I don't think he was the best heavy in the world. My commentary is in regards to the contrivance of his championship reign.

 

On July 26, 1920 a syndicated article written by Dempsey detailing his challengers was published with Dempsey stating: "Billy Miske stayed the limit with me and that entitles him to another chance. But Billy has been sick for the past year and reports have it that he is far removed from the condition of two years ago."

The following day Dempsey signed to defend his championship against Miske...

On August 27 Miske published an article detailing his illness. Swearing it was a curvature of the spine which was now corrected. In fact much of the promotion was spent by Miske trying to explain away his health condition.

Yet on August 29 an article states: "The popular impression among followers of boxing is to regard Miske more or less in the light of an easy foe for the champion, a "set up" in the vernacular of the ring."

That same day Miske took the day off training ostensibly because he didnt want to "go stale."

September 1 E. W. Dickerson (an excellent boxing authority and referee of the undercard bouts) writing for the Grand Rapids Herald tried to bring some logic and common sense into the equation: "The Billy Miske end of the Dempsey-Miske fight is being played just a little bit too strong. They are working the "knock em dead" stuff in training camp workouts to death and would have us believe that every time Miske lands a blow the relatives of the man hit for four or five generations back turn over in their graves.
Miske never was what would be termed a knockout fighter. When he was in prime before he took a year's layoff while recuperating from an operation such as oftimes puts a man out of the running insofar as athletics are concerned. It hardly stands to reason that he would punch harder after a long layoff than when he was fighting right along. They would also have us believe that he is faster than he ever was before and a greatly improved fighter in every way. Ask yourself if you ever knew any kind of performer to grow more formidable during a long absence from the game than if they kept actively engaged in the performance of that game."

Later he says: "Evidently they are working under the impression that the public longs for that which P. T. Barnum said was it's best feed, and that anything they say will be swallowed hook, line, and sinker."

That same day Miske did only light training. He said he didnt feel well and blamed it on a slice a pie a la mode he had eaten. Where is the eye roll smiley when you need him...

Miske was again forced to issue a denial about his condition the following day. This time he stated that he had had his tonsils removed six months previous and at the same time a curvature of his spine corrected that required him to spend some time in the hospital. He stated he was fully recovered.

On September 3 P.T. Knox complained of the conditions in Miske's camp, stating that it was impossible to get a line on Miske because his sparring partners were of such a poor quality.

That same day another article stated: "Some fistic fan remarked the other night: 'If Dempsey doesnt stop Miske in a few rounds theyre faking; if he does its a crime.' This is an arbitrary and unreasonable angle of course but its a pretty good line on what the followers of the boxing game think of the Benton Harbor match.
Very few believe that Miske has the slightest chance against the champion. The betting hereabouts, and there is very little of it, makes Dempsey a 1 to 5 favorite. If Miske should beat the champion it would be the biggest upset in form that the sporting game has ever known.
Miske at his best was not a real great fighter. He has been sick for over a year. The usual optimism emanates from his camp regarding his condition but no one ever heard of a boxer admitting he was in no shape to fight - before a battle."

The same day W. O. McGeehan wrote: "Though there is no cause for any great excitement over the Dempsey-Miske bout, it seems that curiosity will draw quite a few of the local fight bugs to Benton Harbor on Labor Day. Legally it is a heavyweight championship bout, but actually it is nothing highly important in pugilistic history. There is no question as to whether or not Dempsey can stop Miske. It is a question of how soon he will do it."

The same day Frank Menke stated that Miske's training was "in no wise impressive."

Harry Greb and Red Mason tried to place a bet on Dempsey but couldnt find any Miske fans willing to put money up.

On Sept. 5 John Wray wrote: "The match has been embellished by references to it's championship character and to the fact that a title is at stake. As a matter of fact, there isnt one fan in ten who credits Miske with more than a remote chance to stop Dempsey -which would be the only possible manner in which he could gain the tarnished laurels of world's champion tomorrow. It being a no-decision affair, a point victory is meaningless.
Miske's mediocre record, his lack of a consistent kayo punch to compare with Dempsey's, his long illness and that fear of the champion which he is alleged to have expressed on one occasion, have all influenced popular opinion in favor of the belief that Dempsey will be a copper riveted cinch."

The day of the fight Harry Keck stated that the less said about the match the better and that Miske "has absolutely no chance."

Of the fight itself Eugene Kessler wrote "It was easy to see that Dempsey was lenient with Miske after he landed two jarring left hooks to the chin in the first few seconds of battling yesterday. After that he knew he was able to drop his opponent at any time. In fact it appeared that the might champion feared that he might seriously injure Miske by cutting loose at the wrong time."

Dickerson's review of the fight opened: "A lamb was led to the slaughter and he died game. That was all. Miske has been a sick man for a year or two and he needed the money. His friend Jack Dempsey, gave him the opportunity to get in on something and what the loser received today is going to be quite a lot." In describing Miske Dickerson wrote: "Miske looked anything but a well man, his skin being of a sickly pallor."

Bob McAuliffe wrote: "Billy Miske, the St Paul Tiger turned out to be a tame house cat." "Miske entered the ring with an elaborate bath robe and a light cap. That was about all he did have." "While Miske was still lying in his corner, apparently unconcious, the throng of people had already started to wend their way out of the arena and such remarks as 'set-up,' 'it was framed, 'robbers, thieves,' etc. could be heard."

Sam Hall said the first time Miske was dropped was a blow to the Kidney... With friends like these indeed.

E.W. Dickerson wrote that the final knockdown came while Miske was rising and with his back turned to Dempsey. He stated this lost Dempsey a lot of fans in Michigan.


Thats some title defense. It sure sounds different when you read about it from people who were actually there instead of the tripe written by men like Kahn who admit to being Dempsey nuthuggers.

As for this nonsense about Miske's weight its a red herring by Dempsey's fans. When Miske was hospitalized in 1919/early 1920 his weight ballooned up to 210 pounds according to one of the articles written during the buildup. Miske, like these fans here, was trying to make the point that he was stronger and a good match for Dempsey, using his weight as an example (as alluded to by Dickerson above) this argument was countered with his own words stating that he had ballooned up to 210 pounds while in the hospital. The writer reasoned (correctly) that any man confined to a bed is going to put on weight so it would only be natural for Miske to weigh more after a year of inactivity. He also attacked the ridiculous notion that was being bandied about that Miske had grown an inch in height over the previous year. If you look at his weights prior to his convalescence you will see that he weighed 177 for Gibbons, and being that his match with Levinsky was billed as for the title its likely he weighed 175 or under for that fight. Combine that with his weigh gain while ill and its easy to see why he weighed 187 for Dempsey. So much for the theory that he would have had to have lost weight during the period when he was actively ill.