Dempsey's greatness.

Personally, I think Dempsey's whole career and reputation is a bunch of smoke and mirrors. I don't think he would be top ten HW today or top ten CW. I think there are numerous LHWs and SMWs who would beat him or give him hell. Dempsey really had no excuse for getting tooled the way he was by Tunney, twice. Also, Dempsey's fans are willing to forgive this guy things they would never let a modern fighter get away with, never in a million years.

 

^^^ I Disagree. Most boxing historians will also. Bert Sugars list of top 10 heavyweights:
1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Jack Dempsey
4. Jack Johnson
5. Gene Tunney
6. Rocky Marciano
7. Ezzard Charles
8. George Foreman
9. Joe Frazier
10. Larry Holmes
Notice Jack at number three? But perhaps you are much more knowledgeable in boxing history and more qualified to sum up an all time great boxing champion than someone who authored 80+ books on boxing.

 

Speaking with agenda and without agenda are two different things. It doesn't matter how much boxing books he authored. If that's your best argument than that's bad.

 

Right .. no Mike Tyson, Lennox Lewis, Evander Holyfield or either Klitschko .. this is at best a vintage 1980 list ...

 

Even if we accepted your predictions, you still have to deal with the facts of his career.

He destroyed the top contender of his era in 23 seconds, while giving up about 30 lbs.

He demolished the champion of his era, knocking him down many times in the first round, while giving up 60lbs.

Virtually nobody managed to last any sort of distance with him in his entire career.

Even you don’t believe in your heart that there are supermidleweights and cruiserweights who would beat him today.

 

That is so horrible I don't know where to start.

 

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I wish that you would aspire to be more than you are!

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Seems like you are stuck in 1920.

 

:happy


I certainly think that at least until the 1960's one has to take into account the collective wisdom of boxers, coaches, trainers, and reports who saw many of the yesterdays fighters live. They are in a far better position the us to evaluate who was better than who. And as you correctly point out, if someone like an Ali moves up the ladder, it shouldn't change the relative placement of anyone who's retired. Great post!!!

 

Mr. Janitor, if you don't admit that Mr. Sugar (God Bless his soul) was not at his essence a professional codger, I don't know where we can go with our relationship.

Sugar was a caricature, to the point of ridiculous self parody.

His list isn't as horrible as I suggested; he's got a lot of the players right. But Tunney, who I am often defending in these parts, has no business being ranked above Marciano, Frazier, Holmes or Foreman. That is pure pandering to his Dempsey idolization, so transparent it is embarrassing.

If you want to take Sugar to be some sort of impartial astute intellectual regarding the sport, go ahead. I see him as an ambassador, a guy playing a character, an entertainer.

 

And an endless self promoter. You have to look very hard for a boxing book that came out in the past fifteen years that did not have a Burt quote own the cover may he R.I.P. the list is truly silly.

 

At the time he made that list, both Tyson and Lewis were current fighters and neither Klitschko brother had begun their reigns.

And, the list was posted for the obviously delusional rusak. Stating that Jack had no business being tooled by Tunney, who tooled everyone he fought except Harry Greb at Lhw, makes no sense at all. And again, the list is before Tyson and Lewis were finished fighting. R.I.P Bert, you did well.

 

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It depends who's written the article sometimes, unless it's an overall magazine poll thing- e.g. Nat Loubet- i wouldn't take much notice of; whereas someone like Dan Daniel, for example, always had a better perspective and wasn't stuck in the 1920s. Dan was also at ringside for many of Demspey's fights and felt he was overrated.

Ali being rated so puzzingly, as above, had, thankfully, changed by 1978-and he was beating Johnson in BI's all-time tournament (which ran over a fair few months and featured 64 fighters, including the likes of Peter Jackson- it was a really good read). Ali would reach the final, losing to Joe Louis. By the 1980s he'd taken over as the consensus #1. He was rated 4th by Boxing News as early as 1971, after losing to Frazier, so he was always getting his dues on this side of the pond.

 

he, I am still in the land of the living.
And though I want to avoid this Dempsey ass kicking on this thread, truth compels me to rebut the posters who for whatever reason hate Jack Dempsey...Why do I say this ? Aside from the cold fact that from the time
Dempsey hooked up with Jack Kearns, and hit his stride, Jack Dempsey beat everyone he fought in regular distanced fights. He kod Gunboat Smith, Jim Flynn, Billy Miske, Fred Fulton, Jess Willard, Bill Brennan,
Luis Angel Firpo, Georges Carpentier, and won a wide decision from Tommy Gibbons...He was the Jack Dempsey we should be talking about in alltime
HW standings, BUT the "clever" naysayers who despise him bring up the Gene Tunney bouts after Dempsey softened by 3 years debauchery in
Hollywood, without a fight, without Jack Kearns ,whom he was in a legal battle with, and without ONE tune-up bout, went into the ring against a truly marvelous razor sharp Gene Tunney...A recipe for disaster for a fighter
of about 32 out of the ring for 3 years...And yet some posters bring up the Tunney bouts as if this was the real Manassa Mauler of his savage prime...
Dempsey was no more Dempsey than Ray Robinson was Ray Robinson who
took a whipping from Tiger Jones after a 3 year layoff. or Ali who lost to Spinks or Holmes , past his peak was Ali...I who have been following boxing since the 1940s get so pissed off by some on mainly ESB who
push the "Tunney" bouts to push their agenda...They can get away with this nonsense with some less informed posters but not with me...
And one other point, Dempsey in his second bout with Tunney, old, slow,
and rusty did drop Tunney in the 7th rounds with a 7 punch combination
that was as impressive an array of punches I EVER SAW, and with a different referee than Barry, might have won back his title...But Dempsey with an old pair of legs couldn't pursue the backpeddling Tunney and
he lost the decision...But he did KO an in the PRIME Jack Sharkey in 1927.
Dempsey was the real goods as a savage puncher who beat whoever he fought in his prime and if you have to compare him in fantasy fights,
please don't throw in the 32 year old Dempsey of the 3 year layoff Tunney fights. T'aint fair....