Dempsey's greatness.

I think he does this and that Houdini may actually be Burt ( or vice versa ) ..

 

Houdini is not Burt....as much as I respect Burt. Burt I believe lives in NYC while I live in central NJ.

 

very interesting thread, fellows. Sort of a classic topic, isn't it. I have read all the posts but plan on going back to make comments and get in my two cents. After all, why should I not be as hated as others?

Just one initial comment though

Rating Joe Louis and/or Rocky Marciano above Dempsey is not trashing Dempsey as some posts seem to me to have implied.

Rating Dempsey behind some ordinary non-champion would be perhaps trashing him, but Louis and Marciano were the outstanding fighters of their eras and have records which are in at least some regards better than Jack's.

 

Houdini

"All Dempsey's films show his greatness"

"Silent movie people did not move that way"

They move the same as they do now if projected at the proper speed, and if the camera wasn't originally undercranked for effect (as in comedies).

Actually, if you watch old films from the 1930's to the 1960's you have seen plenty of silent film footage as stock footage. As it was projected at the proper speed, you probably weren't even aware of it

One easy to recognize scene was mounted Native Americans riding out from behind their teepees and across the Wind River in Wyoming, filmed in 1926 at the Wind River Indian reservation by MGM. It was still in use in the fifties in movies and even TV shows. It generally fits in rather well, probably because of the high quality film stock used.

*Anyway, you seem to be arguing both sides of the street. Films support Dempsey's greatness. Okay.

But if anyone watches the films and is not that impressed, the fault lies with the film.

Personally, I think the films give a good picture of Dempsey as a fighter

 

If film on Dempsey was like today's high definiton we would see all the of the nuances that we enjoy so deeply when we look at Duran's style.

 

Houdini

"Marciano is rated highly today almost completely because of his undefeated record"

That is a good reason. I think the object of a fight is to win it. And if you win them all you did all you could do.

Walcott, Charles, Louis, Moore were old

Yeah, and a fair point, but these were still the best fighters around and difficult to defeat. If all these men had been in their primes and Marciano swept through them, he would not only rate highly as a heavyweight, but probably would have to be considered about the best fighter who ever lived. Beating all these men at their best w/o a size advantage and without a loss would be quite a feat.

"his competition was not inspiring"

Some would say Dempsey's was even less inspiring, considering he did not fight Wills or Greb, and lost to Tunney.

"Rocky was floored by the two strongest punchers he faced"

An odd criticism. It took the top punchers to floor him, and both times he got up and fought his way out of trouble easily. I'm trying to think, but almost every other champion was knocked down more often, hurt more badly, or knocked down by lesser punchers than the two who floored Marciano. Tunney was only floored once, but it was for the long count.

It is interesting that folks who complain about trashing Dempsey turn on a dime and trash Marciano.
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*I was just thinking of something from another poster

Dempsey's record as posted----66 wins 6 losses 11 draws, which meant he failed to win over 20% of his recorded fights.

What if rather than going 49-0, Marciano had the equivalent of Dempsey's record, which would be

39 wins, 4 losses, and 6 draws. (29 ko's)

Would Marciano even be considered for the top fifty? let alone the top five?

 

"Carpentier was considered one of the greatest fighters in the world when Dempsey fought him."

Didn't Rickard close his sparring sessions so the sportswriters couldn't see how small he was.

"Firpo was the Foreman of the era"

More like the Mac Foster.

 

On whether a poll from 1962 (and who knows if it represents a decent cross-section) should govern,

it is hard to tell who saw whom fight and how often.

I guess one wants to lock in the opinions (and errors) of the past if one agrees with them, but I think each judging records and film and making up his own mind is better.

 

I buy this.

 

After reading the above posts, may I insert a fantasy fight.
Jack Dempsey vs Paulie Malinaggi, 12 rounds. Who wins ?

 

Malinaggi too slick, Burt.

 

Dempsey being dead makes him a decided underdog in that fight.

 

Burt--I don't think I trashed Dempsey. I defended Marciano.

The comment that Firpo was closer to Mac Foster than to Foreman was because I saw the original comment equating Firpo with Foreman as way over the top. Like Firpo, Foster had an impressive run but fell short against the top men.

Firpo probably deserves to be rated as slightly better than Foster, but he certainly was no Foreman.

 

To repeat the famous prose from the Godfather movie. "just as I want to get out of this
they pull me back in "...This thread is tiresome to me as it is not a mathematical
question that can be answered conclusively....How GREAT was Dempsey MAN AGAINST MAN, is in the eye's of the beholder, no more or no less ?
I, who was weened on Jack Dempsey's greatness by older men who saw Dempsey fight,
and later on growing up reading tons of accounts of his toughness, and savagery in his prime, have been swayed on his greatness from 1919-23. I, in the 1950s would read of the poll taking by boxing writers who voted Dempsey the greatest heavyweight by a large
margin . I have read accounts by past boxers and trainers as Sam Langford, Mickey Walker, Gene Tunney, Jack Sharkey, Max Schmeling, Ray Arcel, Lou Stillman, Whitey Bimstein and others who called Dempsey and Joe Louis the best they have seen
including Ali, and I have more faith in these opinions of these men, over today's
doubters 90 years later...I have watched film of Dempsey still available on hand cranked camera's, and SEE things that today's naysayers do not see, nor WISH to see... And one other thing. There are astute boxing people TODAY, not on ESB, who echo my sentiments
regarding Jack Dempsey who would give anyone, of yesterday and after, a hell of a war...
And one more point...I MAY BE RIGHT !