Dempsey's Power

I said earlier that Dempsey was a top level puncher.

In his last 9 fights--the championship fights from Willard on, and including the non-title ko of Sharkey, Dempsey went 7-2 with 6 ko's. He fought 67 rounds. In his last 9 fights--the championship fights, and including the fights with Reynolds and Matthews, Marciano went 9-0 with 8 ko's. He fought 71 rounds.

Dempsey gained a few rounds because the Tunney fights were limited to 10 rounds.

I just don't see anything to choose in the number of rounds type of argument. Dempsey was more likely to get a first-round ko because of his early tornado attack. Marciano was more likely to score a knockout once you got to the second round.

Marciano seems to have been a little more consistent.

Both men were clearly fierce punchers.

 

Old Fogey, yea he had one KO after 28 but can you add he only had three fights, two of them loses to Tunney. It's not like he had ten bouts and one KO ...

Old Tommy Gibbons was 32 so that would make him six years younger than Walcott, five younger than Louis, one younger than Charles and likely ten younger than Moore. Almost forgotten today Gibbons was a master boxer, one of the best pound for pound fighters of his age and had never been KO'ed when he fough Dempsey who himself was coming off of years of inactivity.

Walcott, Charles and Moore may have been better skilled fighters than Willard and Firpo but they were much smaller men and all had been KO'ed several times prior to Rocky. Willard was a monster who had never been off his feet while Firpo was a 6'3", 220 pound bull in his physical prime. Since this is about power, Dempsey's demonstration is far superior.

Bill Brennen is one of Dempsey's best recorded examples of power punching. After easily defeating Brennan the first time, Dempsey was clearly a bit overconfident for the rematch. His NYC partying before the bout is well documented. That night Brennan, a 6' , 200 pounder in his physical prime, easily as good if not better than Layne, Mathews or any of Rocky's KO hit parade, fought the fight of his life. Dempsey sucked it up and showed his own late round KO power by blasting him out in the 12th with a nasty combination.

Again, I feel Dempsey proved his power against bigger, stronger younger men than Marciano ever did and did so especially late in his career by flattening Sharkey and nearly taking out a prime Tunney.

If we are really gonna compare Rocky and Dempsey here is the bottom: Rocky gave 110% throughout his career and overachieved. Dempsey stopped being a fighter after the Willard bout. He started to immediately regress due to inactivity and his enormous celebrity. He under achieved and to me has always been the ultimate enigma among heavyweight champs.

No one really knows how great Jack Dempsey could have been. I personally feel he was far more talented than Rocky but Rocky earned his place at the top while Dempsey remains filled with question marks. Rocky fought everyone while Dempsey did not, mainly Wills and Greb.

 

atsch

I made my case fine. Walcott was arguably having the best fight of his life up until round 13. He was in terrific shape. Age and the ability to take or absorb a punch is hardly related. I love how you try to be slippery by saying "absorb punishment" and in this case when you're washed up or shot than that would be strongly a case, or if you're 40+. It's not like Walcott was absorbing punishment any different than he was a few years earlier than Louis. As for the older and ability to take a punch. George Foreman. I rest my case.

So it was Marciano looking good up until that 13th round? Are you saying that this bombs broke Walcott down. If that right hand came in round 4 the way it did in 13th the same event would've transpired. This much is obvious. You are really stringing to straws here.

Yes, but still stay within the context of these fights versus the pre title fights. To ignore historical reverence on Marciano's slight altered style would be willfully ignorant or cherry picking when trying to disect his exaggerated power.

I personally find Dempsey to be a far more explosive and skilled puncher. He destroyed much bigger men, without question. I feel certain if more film existed on Jack the question would not really be a debate.[/quote]

 

This debate seems prety academic to me.

Whether Dempsey or Marciano hit harder I doubt that there was a huge gulf separating them.

We could debate to what extent Dempseys effectivnes was down to technique but if we factor that out then the concept of power becomes prety arificial.

I would not personaly spend as much effort as some posters arguing about something so abstract and unmeasurable.

If Dempsey and Marciano both hit me then I will offer an opinion on who hit harder.

 

I agree. I don't think there's a huge gulf between the punching powers of the 2 men. Personally, I thing Dempsey was more effective with his punching power...when he was at his best, but I wouldn't argue with anyone who thinks Marciano's power was better. I might point out to someone who mentions Marciano's knockout percentage that Rocky's percentage would not be so high if he had competed with Dempsey's recorded opponents, at the times in his life that Dempsey fought them, under the same life circumstances, and for the same numbers of scheduled rounds.

 

Not to mention Dempsey was a better two handed puncher ...

 

Only to the extent that he was a better puncher all round.

Both guys were as dangerous with the left ast the right.

 

Huh? With Rocky towering over knocked down men he wouldn't have had a better KO record? That certainly makes a lot of sense. Williard would just be a huge target for Rocky to chop down. Rocky had the better opposition.

I already made stated that I believed Dempsey was a better puncher. Just as I believe Louis is a better puncher than Rocky and Dempsey. I would say Dempsey was a better puncher than Foreman too. But he certainly didn't hit as hard as Foreman. The gap between Foreman and Dempsey and Rocky and Dempsey is obviously a noticeable margin. I still think that Rocky's power in comparison to Dempsey's is noticeably more.

I also think Frazier might hit harder than Dempsey and I think Marciano definitely hit harder than Frazier. So again, these debates usually get no where.

 

Dempsey certainly could punch but his power and skills gets vastly overrated none the less off very little evidence. His competition was very weak when compared to other champions.

 

I think Dempsey was the better puncher in proper terms, he ha dthe harder more technically correct punch and it was faster.

But Rocky always had his punch it was a constant danger moreso tahn any other fighter in the heavyweights that SuzyQ was always banging away all night.

 

Since when was the sharkey kayo one punch? it was a double combination to the balls followed by a left hook to the head....Sharkey was on the ground holding his balls in agonizing pain from the low blows...as far as im concerned thats a repeat of Bowe-Golota. This knockout has extreme controversy....

 

Were they bigger "Better" men? For Example, Rocky Knocked out # 2 rated 37 year old Joe Louis. Louis was 6'2 214lb.


Willard was 37 1/2 years old(older than louis) and had not recorded a win in nearly FOUR years prior to the dempsey fight....while Louis was on a 8 fight winning streak. IMO 1950 Joe Louis would easily pick apart a 1919 Willard.


Luis Firpo, an extremley crude untalented fighter who resembles more of a drunken brawler than a boxer. I firmly believe even the 37 year old Joe Louis would have easily outjabbed and outboxed Firpo for a one sided shutout decision. Louis would just dominate him on the outside.


Carl Morris? Louis would have used him for a punching bag at any stage of his career

Fulton is probably the best bet to beat a 37 year old louis out of the big men dempsey fought...but would he? Fulton had a weak chin and his best weapon(left jab) was not better than Louis's jab. He certainly was not the more skilled of the two, and louis was the harder puncher. I like Louis here.




In my estimation 37 year old Joe Louis was better than any 210lb + heavyweight Jack ever beat

 

My opinion is the pre 1954 slugger version of Rocky Marciano hit harder than Jack Dempsey with one punch...but Dempsey hit harder than the newly changed 1954-55 Marciano.


Marciano recorded the better one punch knockouts on film. Jack had no neutral corner rule and still took many many knockdowns to finally put his opponents away...while rocky once he had his man hurt, the end was soon. Dempsey may have knocked out bigger opponents, but rocky knocked out BETTER opponents...and dempsey certainly never defeated a 210lb + man as good as Joe Louis. Dempsey was no doubt a terrific two fisted puncher with dynamite in his fists, but so was rocky. Its close..but I favor rocky slightly

 

I think what he meant is that Dempsey fought under harsher conditions and in a more unforgiving era. He never got real proper management or training until he met up with Kearns.

 

So, Suzie, if Dempsey lands that exact same shot to the balls and follows it up with the same left hook, on Rocky does Rocky get up or get counted out? Is there any fighter who could have absorbed the shot to the balls / hook combination? Or was that particular Dempsey shot the best of all time.