Deontay Wilder versus Rocky Marciano

JLP 6 · Mar 24, 2014

janitor said: ↑

A further point should be made.

One of the more salient criticisms levelled against Marciano, is the lack of larger heavyweights on his resume, and uncertainties resulting from this.

Of course he did beat some big heavyweights such as Shkor and Wilson, but his critics respond that they were not truly world class, with some justification in my opinion.

If you are going to accept Wilder as a legitimate threat to Marciano based on his size, despite his lack of credentials and those of his opponents, then you effectively legitimise the super heavyweights that Marciano actualy flattened, and loose this key argument.
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Yep,

Excellent breakdown. I would love a response to this from those who see size as an end-all-be-all.

Seamus · Oct 17, 2014

Bumpity bump bump bump.

Flea Man · Oct 18, 2014

Wilder has been hurt by a fat cruiser.

I'm happy to take Marciano here.

mcvey · Oct 18, 2014

janitor said: ↑

A further point should be made.

One of the more salient criticisms levelled against Marciano, is the lack of larger heavyweights on his resume, and uncertainties resulting from this.

Of course he did beat some big heavyweights such as Shkor and Wilson, but his critics respond that they were not truly world class, with some justification in my opinion.

If you are going to accept Wilder as a legitimate threat to Marciano based on his size, despite his lack of credentials and those of his opponents, then you effectively legitimise the super heavyweights that Marciano actualy flattened, and loose this key argument.
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Marciano fought three opponents over 220lbs, to describe them as Journeymen would be a kindness.

Five of his opponents were inside the lightheavyweight limit.
Fifteen were under 185lbs.
Twenty five were under 190lbs
Thirty five under 200lbs.

Seamus · Oct 18, 2014

Flea Man said: ↑

Wilder has been hurt by a fat cruiser.

I'm happy to take Marciano here.
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Yeah, he has a leaky mandible but seems to hit very hard. It would be a fun one.

mcvey · Oct 18, 2014

Seamus said: ↑

Yeah, he has a leaky mandible but seems to hit very hard. It would be a fun one.
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At this stage I'll go for Rocky ,from what little I have seen of him Wilder he throws wide swings .I think Marciano could get inside and punish his body ,get his hands down and land something serious.

janitor · Oct 18, 2014

mcvey said: ↑

Marciano fought three opponents over 220lbs, to describe them as Journeymen would be a kindness.

Five of his opponents were inside the lightheavyweight limit.
Fifteen were under 185lbs.
Twenty five were under 190lbs
Thirty five under 200lbs.
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While the big guys that Wilder has been fighting were real world beaters?

No, in this case the size argument evaporates, even on its own terms.

Seamus · Oct 18, 2014

mcvey said: ↑

At this stage I'll go for Rocky ,from what little I have seen of him Wilder he throws wide swings .I think Marciano could get inside and punish his body ,get his hands down and land something serious.
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The two questions are: Is Marciano quick enough on his feet to close the distance? Can he absorb the punishment he would collect on the way in?

Wilder has horrible balance and footwork. If Marciano would keep him moving and not get caught, he could connect. If he gets stunned (Wilder CAN hit), the balance moves quickly to the other camp.

mcvey · Oct 18, 2014

Seamus said: ↑

The two questions are: Is Marciano quick enough on his feet to close the distance? Can he absorb the punishment he would collect on the way in?

Wilder has horrible balance and footwork. If Marciano would keep him moving and not get caught, he could connect. If he gets stunned (Wilder CAN hit), the balance moves quickly to the other camp.
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There are lots of imponderables here, but that's why you made the thread right?

janitor · Oct 18, 2014

Seamus said: ↑

The two questions are: Is Marciano quick enough on his feet to close the distance? Can he absorb the punishment he would collect on the way in?

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Seamus · Oct 18, 2014

janitor said: ↑

This content is protected

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Wilder's 32-0 is probably better than Marciano's 32-0.

That said, whether he is very good or merely a one trick pony (I agree with the latter), is that trick good enough to beat Marciano specifically because it melds so perfectly with Marciano's weakness.

mcvey · Oct 19, 2014

Seamus said: ↑

Wilder's 32-0 is probably better than Marciano's 32-0.

That said, whether he is very good or merely a one trick pony (I agree with the latter), is that trick good enough to beat Marciano specifically because it melds so perfectly with Marciano's weakness.
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On the subject of balance, not many had worse balance than Marciano.

janitor · Oct 19, 2014

Seamus said: ↑

Wilder's 32-0 is probably better than Marciano's 32-0.
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I do not think that this is the case, or that it would mean anything if it was.

That said, whether he is very good or merely a one trick pony (I agree with the latter), is that trick good enough to beat Marciano specifically because it melds so perfectly with Marciano's weakness.
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One trick ponies simply dont beat great fighters.

Picking Lenox Lewis to beat Marciano is a recognition that size matter, but picking Wilder to beat him is tantamount to saying that it is the only thing that matters.

A better question would be whether Wilder would beat Johnny Shkor.
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mcvey · Oct 19, 2014

janitor said: ↑

I do not think that this is the case, or that it would mean anything if it was.

One trick ponies simply dont beat great fighters.

Picking Lenox Lewis to beat Marciano is a recognition that size matter, but picking Wilder to beat him is tantamount to saying that it is the only thing that matters.

A better question would be whether Wilder would beat Johnny Shkor.
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You may be right, Shkor has one win over a name a cuts stoppage over Mauriello, every other decent fighter beat him.The jury is still out on Wilder, but the fact that his brains trust has been so cautious with him leaves room for scepticism.
The fact that he is rated number 6 in November's Ring just illustrates the dearth of talent among the big guys.
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mcvey · Oct 19, 2014

janitor said: ↑

I do not think that this is the case, or that it would mean anything if it was.

One trick ponies simply dont beat great fighters.

Picking Lenox Lewis to beat Marciano is a recognition that size matter, but picking Wilder to beat him is tantamount to saying that it is the only thing that matters.

A better question would be whether Wilder would beat Johnny Shkor.
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The report on the Shkor fight states that Shkor bothered Marciano by his mauling tactics this is perhaps significant in a fight against Wlad?

This was yet another fight in which Marciano was cut.

To put the fight in perspective.Shkor had been clean kod in his last fight by Walcott in the opening round.
1950-09-18 : Rocky Marciano 190½ lbs beat Johnny Shkor 220½ lbs by TKO at 1:28 in round 6 of 10

Location: Rhode Island Auditorium, Providence, Rhode Island, USA

"Shkor was big and strong, and his mauling tactics were worrisome to Marciano for four rounds. Johnny stayed at close quarters and leaned on his opponent, trying to tire him out. Even so, Rocky did enough punching to win the first three rounds and the fourth was even. Marciano began to find the range in the fifth and knocked Shkor down with a left hook and a right to the eye just before the bell. Marciano came out in the sixth throwing bombs and Shkor was down for three nine-counts before the fight was stopped. Rocky suffered a left eyelid cut in the first round, which his handlers closed, but Shkor opened it in the third and it bled freely after that. The attendance was 6,072 and the gross gate was $12,081"
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