Deontay Wilder's 'Athleticism'.

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by OpinionOfACasual, Dec 3, 2018.



  1. dealt_with

    dealt_with Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Coordination, motor skills and spatial awareness can be learned and developed by anyone. You go on to claim that technical skills are different, and that they are specific to the sport. The aforementioned physical qualities are also specific to the sport, they aren’t as general and transferable as you are making them out to be. You can learn them to a greater extent in a general sense if you play a variety of sports as a kid and you really ingrain fundamental movement patterns. Those things don’t make someone a good athlete, they make someone with fundamental movement quality.
    You’re getting confused because you’re conflating that with athleticism. Athleticism is the intrinsic quality of speed and explosiveness, the natural ability that you largely have or you don’t have. It’s genetics, it’s not teachable coordination and anticipation in a particular sport.
    You think that’s too simplistic but that’s what it is, and that’s why you’re getting confused.
    Think about it as nature vs nurture. Mikey Garcia is nurture, an average athlete but he has good technical skills and fundamental movement (balance etc., the things you think are athleticism). You can see that he is slow, but he is well trained and grew up in a boxing family so he knows the game and can anticipate, so his timing helps to compensate for his lack of athletic ability. Gamboa is nature, powerful and explosive. Wilder is nature, powerful and explosive. You know that athletic quality when you see it, those guys stand out and can succeed despite plenty of flaws, and/or inexperience in the sport. Then you have guys who are exceptional athletes and then also develop all the fundamental stuff (the things you think are athleticism but are not), Lomachenko or Lebron in basketball.
     
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  2. Wass1985

    Wass1985 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Athleticism is today's word for Mandingo......
     
  3. JeremyCorbyn

    JeremyCorbyn Active Member Full Member

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    Yeah, I agree mainly with this. Take any top sport star who is a master of their profession, where they look like they have world class coordination, balance etc, you plonk them in a sporting arena away from their specialist sport, surrounded by professionals, and they would suddenly look like they have the coordination and balance of bambi on ice. And unless you'd seen them play their specialist sport before, you would probably find it very difficult to imagine they have any sporting pedigree at all.

    I mean there are some rare people who have excelled in two sports, but even in those cases they tended to have played both sports from a young age.
     
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  4. verpeiler

    verpeiler New Member Full Member

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    Let's assume, Wilder never went skiing in his life and is going to do a beginners course during a weekend in Aspen.

    After such a weekend, would he be able to pick up the basics of skiing better or worse than the average of his beginners course?

    And would somebody, who never went skiing before and is a standout in such a course, be considered a great athlete?
     
  5. dealt_with

    dealt_with Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    He’d be poor at skiing simply from having a high centre of gravity. If you compare him to someone else the same size I’d hazard a bet that he would be better than that average.
     
  6. It's Ovah

    It's Ovah Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Except speed and explosiveness are not the only traits associated with "physical ability" so that statement above is a pretty meaningless one. A marathon runner has great physical ability; so does a ping pong player or a weightlifter. These are all trained to some degree, but you still need the raw stuff to excel.

    No one can learn to fight like Niccolino Locche with his otherworldly ring awareness or insane hand-eye coordination. Those were things he was born with and honed in the ring. Same goes for any fighter demonstrating exceptional abilities not related to the narrow confines of how many fast twitch muscle fibres they have.
     
  7. SmackDaBum

    SmackDaBum heavyweightblog.com booted Full Member

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    Timing is based on Reaction Time and Choice Reaction Time. etc. You can't train those attributes, either you have it or you don't.

    I would also throw in hand-eye-coordination, and judging of distance in there as well. There you have your timing. Everybody got a floor and a ceiling on their attributes but it only takes you that far. Because everybody wants to maximize their full potential...

    So Genetics will be the deciding factor.
     
  8. mirkofilipovic

    mirkofilipovic ESB Developer Full Member

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    Fury is the better athlete, imagine if he had power, LOL. A superheavy Joe Calzaghe mixed with James Tony.
     
  9. iii

    iii Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Having a really fast sports car that has no fuel is useless...Wilder has to start doing Roadwork to build his stamina, he gasses to quickly.
     
  10. iii

    iii Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Calzaghe has stamina for two men ...
     
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  11. Hi-Tek-Lomo

    Hi-Tek-Lomo Well-Known Member Full Member

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    He's basically a giraffe from Alabama
     
  12. SmackDaBum

    SmackDaBum heavyweightblog.com booted Full Member

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    Then he will just start to lose his body mass even faster. Wilder is stuck in a moment 22.
     
  13. iii

    iii Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Then he had better learn how to box as well....
     
  14. Luis Fernando

    Luis Fernando Active Member Full Member

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    Speed, explosiveness and power can also be learnt by anyone. But only to a certain point...... The same is the case with coordination, agility, balance and etc.

    Agility, power, speed, hand eye coordination, balance, explosiveness and etc. They are all GENERIC ATHLETIC ATTRIBUTES. They're not sport specific! Sport specific attributes in boxing for example, would involve skills like rotating the hips correctly when throwing a power punch or ensuring the opposite hand to the punching hand stays up when throwing a punch with the other hand. These are technical skills that only apply to boxing and can't be transferred to any other sport.

    Meanwhile, athletic attributes like agility, coordination, balance, power, speed and etc. These are all transferable to other sports.

    Take Vasyl Lomachenko and Oleksandr Usyk. Two of the most 'COMPLETE' athletes in boxing today. Lomachenko is literally a dancer turned boxer. He's transferred abilities such as footwork, agility, balance and coordination from dancing to boxing.

    Usyk can perform many athletic feats Wilder can only dream of. Can Wilder juggle multiple balls simultaneously? Of course not! Since his hand eye coordination is simply nowhere near good enough.

    Even scientists would disagree with your notion that only speed, power and explosiveness are 'athletic' attributes whilst balance, agility and coordination aren't.

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    Mikey Garcia is a bad example of someone with 'athletic' movement. You're better of sticking to Lomachenko and Usyk, who have movement that goes beyond just the 'fundamentals' and 'basics' of movement, due to innate athletic qualities both possess. Mikey Garcia will never have the athletic abilities, such as agility, coordination and balance to execute the moves Lomachenko executes in the ring. These are UNDOUBTEDLY athletic attributes. Just because you say they aren't, doesn't make it so!

    Just like with power, speed and explosiveness (Deontay Wilder's strengths), you are also genetically ingrained with a specific level of agility, balance and coordination that you can't develop after a specific point (because these are natural athletic traits). No matter how much a nonathletic person trains or learns, they'll never gain the agility of a Vasyl Lomachenko or a Lionel Messi from football (American Soccer).

    Being short, whilst having short legs and wide hips provides a person with a lower center of gravity. NATURALLY, they'll have better agility than someone with the opposite traits. No matter how much a taller person with a higher center of gravity trains or learns, they'll never develop the agility of that shorter person.

    You can have two dancers train in the exact same way from the exact same trainer / instructor for the exact same amount of time. However, after both master the fundamentals / basics of dancing movement, one of those dancers will still end up being superior to that other dancer due to better natural athletic abilities which are genetically inherited. One of those dancers will be more agile, with better coordination and balance. Despite both training the EXACT same way for the EXACT same amount of time. After two dancers / athletes master the fundamental / basics of their sport, natural / athletic attributes are what will separate the two athletes. Despite both having equal learnt abilities (basics and fundamentals), one will still be superior due to better natural athletic abilities (such as balance, coordination, agility, speed, power, endurance, explosiveness and etc.)
     
  15. dealt_with

    dealt_with Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Reaction time is primarily a matter of learning in a specific context. Being able to predict a movement reduces the cognitive processing demands, so that can be learned along with all the other attributes you mentioned. The genetics part of the reaction equation is more to do with relative stiffness, if you’re a stronger/tighter individual you have less slack to take up before movement is initiated.
     

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