Design a gameplan for Quarry to fight Frazier

Perhaps the fast start with throwing hard shots isn't the way to go. Quarry was a decent inside fighter when he wanted to be, but I don't think he had the right style or enough power to stop Frazier early enough warranting such an aggressive start.

A better approach might be to employ some of the tactics that he used in the Patterson fights, like giving angles and boxing over the long hall, although Ellis and ALi were unsuccessful at out boxing Joe in their first meetings with him.

Tough question.

 

well seeing that quarry's counter punching style couldn't stop frazier coming forward despite popping him with power shots,then you would think quarry would have to use the jab and step in to try to put frazier on the back foot.but as this just wasn't quarry's style you would think his cause was pretty much futile.anyhow who did put frazier on the back foot?he was still going forward when big george was bashing him all over the ring.

 

I would say that Quarry should try his best to keep the fight in ring center and to keep off the ropes. Keep his right hand cocked to block the left hook and use counter rights off the hook. Move all the time, and brake Frazier's 1-2-3 rhythm. Dundee worked on that with Ellis and Ali, but they weren't didn't stick with it, (especially Ellis). However, I still think Frazier would always beat Quarry, but that is the advice I would give.:good

 

Well Chris, I really believe Foreman himself put it best when he stated that if Quarry had fought Ellis the way he fought Frazier, and Frazier the way he fought Ellis, that Jerry would have become the undisputed heavyweight champion.

Big George has been criticized roundly at times for providing poor television commentary (something I haven't viewed enough of to comment on), but he also successfully kept his own council in regaining his old title from Moorer. It does bear repeating that it was George who Tommy Morrison called on for advice after crumbling against Mercer, advice from Foreman which proved so helpful to Tommy that it ironically made George the architect of his own eventual defeat to Morrison.

Foreman sparred with Quarry, and of course shared the ring twice with Frazier. I strongly suspect George is not merely being charitable in touting Jerry as highly as he has over the years. Foreman was singing Quarry's praises for many years before internet services like youtube came along to show us Jerry's finest performances, where television had only replayed Quarry's most dismal defeats. Providers like youtube are now making Foreman's claims on behalf of Jerry suddenly look very astute.

With all that taken into account, I'm inclined to defer to George's assessments, and accept him at his word that Quarry's fight plans for Frazier and Ellis should have been transposed.

Smokin' Joe's aggression was ideally suited for Jerry's counterpunching skills. It's something of a mystery to me that he went after Frazier in their first bout as quickly as he did. Joe has been stereotyped as a slow starter, but coming off his one round blowout of Zyglewicz, that notion should have been dispelled in Quarry's mind at that particular time.

Even if Quarry's face had remained unmarked in that title fight, he sprinted out of the gate too quickly, against a more relaxed and better paced champion. Long before 15 rounds was up, Jerry was guaranteed to burn out of gas. Jerry had gone 15 rounds with Ellis the year before, had taken out Spencer in 12, and was coming off a dominating 12 round decision win over the 6'3," 234-1/2 pound Buster Mathis. (For Mathis, this was actually a reasonably low weight, the same weight Senior had dominated Chuvalo over 12 rounds at the month prior to facing Quarry.) Jerry should have let Frazier set the pace through the first scheduled half of their bout, concentrating on his countering and defense. Quarry also went to Joe's body an awful lot in the first couple of rounds, frantically hooking downstairs. It seemed as though Jerry was hoping to sap Joe's energy with bodyblows more than Quarry would expend in delivering them, a gamble which failed to pay off.

Knowing that in hindsight, I would advise Jerry to only attack Joe's body as a diversion, not go downstairs so much that he'd expose his own face to fight stopping damage. Defend against Frazier's body attack, then counter to Joe's head. Frazier's head was completely unmarked by the end of that first match, and we know that he tended to swell against Ali, who completely neglected Joe's body. Frazier's facial swelling was the immediate cause of the stoppage in Manila.

In counterpunching Frazier to the face, Quarry might have assured that it would be Joe expending the greater amount of energy over the first portion of that contest. Then, with Jerry making use of his recent late round experience, there would be an even playing field entering the championship stretch. Would it have been enough to change the outcome? Maybe, maybe not. But it would have been interesting to find out.

"Never hook with a hooker," is an axiom which might actually have played in Quarry's favor, had he let Frazier do the leading. Jerry's hook was a machine gunned weapon in that contest, and over a longer distance, I think he could have out triggered Frazier with both his own quicker hook, and the fact of having a better two fisted attack. With his mobility, Quarry might also have been able to outmaneuver Joe a bit, coaxing Frazier into charging more aggressively into his counters, rather than try standing his own ground with this latter day Marciano admirer.

 

I believe whatever the game plan is Quarry just physically isnt durable enough to handle Frazier in the long haul.

 

I tell Quarry to lie down in round 1.

I relly dont see what kinda of plan is needed for Jerry to beat Fraizer here. No matter what Quarry does, I feel Fraizer will always come out on top.

 

I tend to agree that Jerry's earlier counterpunching style was more appropriate in fighting a Joe Frazier than was the ultimately futile straight forward, punch for punch style he actually used both times. The Quarry of the second Patterson and the Spencer fights disappeared after his 15 round decision loss to Jimmy Ellis. He recieved great criticism from many in the press, his fans and particularly his father which stung him and made him want to prove how macho he was by trading punches with Smokin' Joe. It was most unwise for him to abandon the style that he had earlier of cagily backing up into the ropes and inticing his opponent to come in punching, thus putting them in range of his excellent and effective counterpunches. This was done successfully against both Patterson and Spencer. Fritzie Zivic employed a similar (and dirtier) style against Henry Armstrong in their 1941 15 rounder in which Zivic won with the welterweight title. Zivic would retreat behind a left jab then suddenly stand his ground and counter hard to the head of Armstrong. Retreat, backpeddle, then suddenly stop and lash out. This worked for Zivic, and he even decked Henry in the 15th and last round of that fight. I've always thought Quarry's whole battle plan was wrong that night against Frazier. I saw the fight on closed circuit tv when I was 16, and I remember thinking, as the crowd was cheering Jerry on in that blazing first round, which he won, that this was a big, big mistake in tactics. Turned out I was right.

 

There was a portent of how the fight would be when Quarry declared before the fight that he would fight Frazier differently than the way he fought Ellis, and everyone else in general. He said he would be more agressive and go after Joe in this fight, something he didn't do against Ellis. Of course, different fighters, different styles, you know and it was a big mistake for Jerry to abandon a style that he was peculiarly effective with. He fell in a swimming pool wrong and broke some bones in his back before he fought Ellis, and fought rather well considering that Ellis, in addition to being a fast, sharp boxer, used to sparring with Ali, could also punch, as witnessed by his two knockdowns of Oscar Bonavena just before he fought Quarry. Ellis never came close to decking Jerry, and seemed to respect his counterpunching alot by refusing to play the gane of following Jerry into corners, which could have been fatal. So he lost to Ellis, big deal, he should have used the same strategy and tactics against Joe Frazier. When Jerry said he was fighting more aggressively, I had a feeling that he would be playing right into Frazier's hands that way. I sort of thought that Jerry was being foolish and that Frazier would likely win. I've always been fascinated by a fighter who uses a smart battle plan and overcomes the odds, like for instance when Wille Pastrano out tricked Harold Johnson (though just barely), Carlos Ortiz, who used his head and emploed a similar strategy against Joe Brown, and Joey Giardello, who was brilliant in out boxing and out foxing Dick Tiger.

 

I think Quarry could indeed have hooked with Frazier. I believe he was quicker with it, if not always as hard. I'm not necessarily suggesting Jerry box Frazier off the back foot. With his narrow base, he wouldn't have to. He would be better off playing more of a matador to Frazier's bull, using his mobility to sidestep, and he could duck and counter well out of the corners. (Quarry decked Spencer doing just that.)

When Jerry blasted out Jack Bodell, he swayed back away from Bodell's southpaw cross, then put his lights out with a ruinous counter right. If he could evade and counter Bodell's left that perfectly, then I expect he could have inflicted significant damage to Frazier with the same manuever, slipping Joe's hook and making him pay.

Would the suggested change in tactics result in a different outcome? I can't say that with any great confidence, but we do know that what he actually tried did prove suicidal, hence this thread you've created.

 

I too think Quarry could possibly have hooked with Joe. Joes kryptonite was the uppercut. While a right uppercut does open you up to Fraziers hook, Foreman and Ali both used it to take it away from Joe a little. By landing good uppercuts George was able to stand Joe up a little more and Ali used the same punch in all 3 fights to take away Fraziers bobbing.
Joe is a much easier target, when he is not so low, to hit with jabs and hooks.

That said I still dont think Quarry could beat Joe.

 

Before the Ellis fight Jerry hurt his back horseplaying with Mike and it should have been postponed. Jerry said his back was stiff as a board and full of pain but he didn't want to have the shot at Ellis go by.