Devastating Jabbers.

The thread is about devastating jabbers not necessarily the best jabbers. Obviously Liston couldn't compete with Ali's jab, but his jab was a lot more damaging than Ali's. Also, Louis did use the jab against schmelling in the first fight, he had schmelling's right eye practically swollen shut by the end of the fight.

 

I was going to mention Greg Page but figured I'd take a roasting for doing so.

Inconsistent performer, but his jab was very effective at his brilliant best.

 

I've seen a bunch of heavyweight tape,and his is clearly the best for a heavyweight i've seen,and i've also had the pleasure of seeing it live,as great as Holmes and Ali's is his is on a different planet,its a shame he wasnt commited to the gym he could have been really special,and not just another heaveyweight champion his skill level overall was extremely impressive as was his hand and footspeed.

 

Greg Page had ATG talent. That's right, he could have been an ATG top 10 all timer. He just didn't get there. He would have been by far the most talented fighter holmes ever faced.

 

I watched his fight with Tillis. Glimpses of sheer genius at times. Shame he couldn't keep his weight down.

 

Yeah it sure was funny you bring up this fight Tillis had damn good talent himself and speed just shows you good Paige really was.

 

Page came in at 220 for Berbick and lost. He came in at 220 for Orlin Norris and lost. He came in at 224 for David Bey and lost. He was 226 for George Chaplin I, and was only rescued from defeat by a hometown MD in Louisville. He was still in his 20s when he came in at a record low and obviously weak 218 for Mark Wills II, and got stopped for a second time by his unlikely kryptonite nemesis in six. Whatever it was that held him back, failure to keep his weight under a certain level was definitely not it.

 

it sounds like page, seldon and thomas had great jabs,

did the other late 80's early 90's beltholders had great jabs too,

tucker
tubbs
berbick
tate
akinwande
bruno
?

 

Perhaps not, but in this particular fight, had he come in at 215-215lbs, I think he would have stopped Tillis sooner. Even 237lbs he was far to fast.

What do you think did hold Greg Page back?

 

Hearns had the most versatile and multi faceted jab i have seen. He could use it to pile points, to bust you up, to fend you off or to camouflage the huge right hand.

 

He was not a devasting jabber powerwise, but Willie Pep's jab was like a piston...He
would shoot out a series of jabs,4 or 5, without bringing his left hand completely
back, befduddling his opponents. and he was on target ...

 

Again, he was described as "weakened" at 218 for the rematch with Wills, and "horribly out of shape" at 242 for the first loss to his unlikely nemesis.

Randy Gordon continually harassed James Broad about his weight to the point that the two of them developed it into a comedic running gag of mock antagonism. However, the one time Broad did come in under 230, Marvis Frazier beat him in their professional rematch.

Ultimately, I think the fact that basketball was always his first love was guaranteed to limit how far he could go in boxing. His heart wasn't really in it, and he might be alive today if his father Albert allowed him to pursue what he truly wanted to do in athletics. (I'm not suggesting that he could have gotten to the NBA, but a collegiate basketball scholarship might have led to a degree and secure professional future.)

What you seem to be asking though, is what he could have done to further himself within the sphere of pugilism. In this day and age, his weight wouldn't have been seen as so much of a hindrance in boxing. If he had been allowed to concentrate strictly on conditioning and fitness, without concern for weight, he might have been able to enjoy a fully actualized boxing life. Higher weights did not compromise his speed, while lower weights did not enhance it. He needed to maintain full strength. The lowest weight I saw him look impressive at was 224 for Marty Monroe.

Now here's the foremost advocate for Page on this forum. (Yet this initial thread contribution does not mention him, something of a surprise.) JT, would you be willing to share your feedback with Addie about Greg, and what he needed to do to fulfill his potential, if anything?

 

Hmmmm, ok. I was about to address a couple of minor points in your other post.

Firstly i'd look well past Wills. This includes Norris as well. Did Page ever put on a decent performance post Coetzee? Unfortunately for him by the time he started coming into bouts consistently in better shape the talent just wasn't there. He may have only been 28 or 29 but the bird had flown the coup, for whatever reason. Not like he'd copped thrashing and debilitating ko's either. Drugs? Who knows? Little doubt to the impartial observer that he just wasn't the same talent.

Now lets go back to the other end of the scale. Trevor Berbick.

This was a fair step up in class for Page and consensus was he'd have too much class. Page decided to respond to the constant criticism of being overweight in this bout. He boiled down to a slim 221.

Unfortunately for him he chose the wrong day for a crash diet, it was hot as hell and he complained of feeling listless and having no energy. Allied to this he was fighting with a broken right thumb from the second round on. To further compound thinhs he was fighting a determined Berbick who would have given him stylistic trouble at any stage if their careers.

Berbick took away all of Pages strengths by smothering him with aggression and bull like strength right from the very start. His speed, snapping jab and reach were all nullified. Whether Page would have beat him on this day at a heavier weight and with no broken thumb is very doubtful. Overconfidence was also a stumbling block.

Bey was Pages first fight under new trainer Janks Morton. Janks was happy with the efforts vs Bey and said he was happy with progress and didn't expect miracles first up.

You actually omitted Page's best ever all round performance against a high level fighter. He came in at a very very fit 227 against Renaldo Snipes who was coming in off a superb upset of Berbick who was himself coming off the great win over Page. Page totally schooled Snipes and looked great in the latter stages. This was the fittest i ever seen him and he actually outperformed all the other heavies on the same card, which included Holmes, Witherspoon, Dokes and Weaver.

But anyway a complete lack of consistent desire and focus killed Page. Allied to this his limited education had him trusting no-one and always thinking the system was out to get him or ripping him off. He was also overconfident and brash. Apparently he had the shits and came into the Witherspoon fight purposely out of shape. After a career best win he was pathetic vs Tubbs whom he had almost always beaten in the ams.

I didn't mention the Page jab in here because of his inconsistency as a fighter on the whole. His jab would be electric when he was on and motivated, but too many times he was miles off form, unmotivated and out of shape and didn't keep even average fighters away. Guys like Holmes and Hearns had that jab firing every time they stepped into the ring so i thought it a bit unfair to mention him.

I'm thrilled however that others did and that his talent is being recognised. For the record i think he had the best right hand in the division when on and the Snipes fight was one of his best ever jabbing exhibits.

Cheers.

 

never saw the fuss about Page.Typical flash over substance 80s Ali clone ala Nino Larocca.

Not that he didn't have some good tools and could have had a better career, but he never looked like a potential great.

 

Thanks for the reply. I purposely omitted Snipes, as I was trying to address the question of what his lowest optimal weight was. For me, Monroe was indeed the lightest I ever saw him in an impressive performance. (As for the top end, Greg was 236 for Coetzee, who incensed Page enormously by saying, "He's such a jerk!" During their match, Greg kept taunting, "Here's another one from the jerk!" when launching a blast. In prime condition, I figure that range of a dozen pounds between Monroe and Coetzee was probably optimal.)

It does say something for his talent when some rate his jab, and others his right hand, while his left hook was the punch which impressed me (and Stan Ward) most.

Where I was concerned, Greg was not the second coming of Ali, and he should not have been attempting to emulate Muhammad. He was very much his own man with his own assets and weaknesses, and absolutely needed to fight in the way he was best suited for. He was not a butterfly, but a truly dangerous puncher, and his knockout record reflects that. Witherspoon was a respectable late career stoppage. (Tim was only halted four times out of 69 total outings. Not an easy man to stop.)

As you've said, he "boiled down" for Berbick, and looked drawn and depleted, likewise for Norris. Too much attention was paid to his physique, and not enough to what he was doing in the ring. He did respond to the criticism, and it affected him adversely. Maybe his skin just wasn't thick enough to see him through.