Did Ali cheat against Foreman?

Why did everyone listen to a jilted George Foreman after his defeat to Muhammad Ali? So the odds favored George Foreman, he did nothing to prepare for Ali. He walked around with his mean looking Canines, he scowled for the cameras, doing the best impression of his boyhood idol Sonny Liston. Foreman bawled about the climate affecting him, Ali prepared in the humid climate of Zaire, Africa, Foreman had the same opportunity as Ali but Nooo ! He had to pretend he was Liston instead of taking the fight serious, these conspiracy theories just crack me up, where was CBS News with Walter Cronkite on this hokey corny conspiracy theory? Foreman thought he was going to blast out 32 year old Ali as he had done to Joe Frazier and Ken Norton. D. Sadler and Archie Moore forgot to remind George that styles make fights. This speculative exchange of money in the dressing room never happened unless there was a credible witness to that interaction. It makes me laugh when someone always makes an excuse for their losses. What's going on? No more JFK conspiracies to invent, like Detective Joe (Jack Webb) Friday used to say on Dragnet, Just The Facts Mam.

 

Stevie G, We need to educate these people on believing everything they read and hear. I remember that fight, I heard it over the radio, then saw it when it was broadcast on ABC's Wide World Of Sports in January 1975. Ali fighting dirty? George was no Saint in the ring, pushing and shoving his opponents, sounds more like Sour Grapes than a cartoonish conspiracy theory. I thought that George Foreman was a man of the cloth, 10 Hail Mary's today for spouting untruths. Ha Ha.

 

I've been in plenty of pre fight locker rooms, but all of them I've been in the last 10-15 years, there is an inspector for each fighter and after the hands are wrapped the inspector accompanies the fighter everywhere he goes, even the rest room. In your example, if a horse shoe is placed in the gloves, the inspector in the ring and the ref will squeeze the gloves after the fighter is gloved. That should tell anyone who has any idea what he is doing if there is padding removed or is a horse shoe has been added. I've never been anywhere where the hand wraps are not inspected before the gloves are put on. To cheat requires an accomplice in the commission or the sanctioning group.

If I was in a place where there was no inspection of the wraps or gloves and I was not allowed to watch or inspect them either, there would be no fight, we'd leave. To allow yourself or your fighter to fight in those conditions is inviting injury or damage to yourself or your fighter.

 

So I’m gathering you’ve never been to a club show in a smaller state. Some states I think still don’t even have commissions, and the requirement is that they get a commissioner from another state through the Association of Boxing Commissioners appointed to go to that show — but they don’t send a whole crew of inspectors.

Is it your experience that every commission inspector really knows exactly what he’s seeing and what he’s doing? Not mine — some of those get appointed as political favors by the governor or whatever and there’s nothing the boxing people can really do. (And these people also have to know MMA and wrestling rules too and there are probably precious few who are really, truly experts in every facet of all three.)

Have you never, ever known an inspector to take his eyes off of something for a minute or have to take a leak?

Are you saying the NYSAC was complicit in Panama Lewis removing padding from Billy Collins’ gloves? Like they were accomplices and approved it even helped him pull the horsehair out? LOL.

Now tell me: Is it your contention that a cornerman (or boxer or manager, whatever) who deliberately tampers with the gloves or monkeys with hand wraps or otherwise does something illegal that can result in major damage or even death to another boxer has ZERO responsibility for their own criminal actions? In your mind, are Panama Lewis and Luis Resto innocent and absolved because their wrongdoing wasn’t caught?

You’re describing a perfect world. We do not live in one.

 

I saw the movie, A Perfect World (1993) with Kevin Costner and Clint Eastwood. It is one of my favorite movies, I own it on a store bought copy on VHS. I am not a sour puss, hating the world. Ha Ha.

 

Good post.

Just another distinguishing feature that makes it problematic comparing boxing to other sports.

Imagine negotiating playing field size and/or not having a reliable, standard field size each and every time out?

Actually, there maybe instances of same but I don’t know that the variances or frequency of same would equate to what has been seen in boxing.

As far as illegal wraps, tampered gloves etc. go - of course that’s a big no no. It really doesn’t come down to a difference of opinion -rather, it’s appropriate wordings and definitions that are required to prevent a semantical loopholes.

Perhaps a good start on that one is it that falls under boxing apparatus - and that at the very least that apparatus should be equal and there are no equivocations re prescribed gloves/wraps - though it seems glove sizes can be negotiated, but with the same negotiated size imposed on both combatants.

Also, as has been already well explained, inspections are only provided a small window for scrutiny. If something illegal is somehow missed, the horse has bolted, concealed forever more unless the ref/officials pivot mid fight and re-inspect, or also if a post fight inspection reveals same - and if they did find the wraps/gloves non conforming, they most certainly wouldn’t equivocate on the exposed evidence - they’d DQ.

 

I love A Perfect World Rich. A brilliantly nuanced movie. I would say Clint is/was a very good actor but he’s a genius director. So many very good - great movies, I especially like Gran Torino also.

 

I don't think anyone on the board is arguing about a 4 round fight in a state without a commission. Ali and Foreman were high profile and the discussion is over whether Ali cheated in the ring. That is the ref's call and both fighters can't be blamed for doing as much as the ref allowed. If the ref didn't enforce the rules, that is on him.

I haven't been to any states that are lenient and don't watch the wrapping and gloving before a fight. In my experience the states have tightened up and they don't want high profile injuries to fighters. We took a fighter to Resorts International in Queens about 10 years ago. They had a knowledgeable inspector for our fighter and I assume the other inspectors were too. That was the first time I had seen things so strict. We took a guy to a small show in N.C. afterward. I assumed that N.C. would not be so tight, but there was little or no drop off from what was done in NY. All of the states are about the same that we have been to, NY, Pa., Md. D.C., Va. N.C. Oh., etc. They all have inspectors and they all watch the hand wrapping and gloving. The main difference is in what testing they require before the fight. Some require more extensive neurological and eye testing than others.

If the commission/sanctioning body hires people who don't know what is allowed by the rules that is negligence. Hiring your BIL, or drinking buddy who knows nothing and is just there for a payday is wrong. A commission could hire almost anybody who posts on this board and they would get an enthusiastic person who wants to do a good job. Finding people who want to go to fights and be a part of the show wouldn't be difficult, there are lots of people who like boxing and would do a good job. The commission/sanctioning body gets a fee and they are supposed to provide a service, it they do not, they should be replaced.

 

But they don’t get to hire who they want sometimes. There have been investigative stories about New York’s commission and political appointees in jobs they aren’t qualified for — to think it doesn’t happen elsewhere is just naive.

https://www.ringtv.com/590042-polit...-new-york-state-athletic-commission-part-one/

Again, you’re talking about a perfect world. We do not live in such a place. You can say it shouldn’t happen, but it does.

You introduced stuff that has nothing to do with Zaire (do you think they had a real commission lol?) and that’s what I’m responding to.

I’ve asked twice so I’ll ask a third time: When someone does something like Panama Lewis and Luis Resto did, is it really your position that they bear no responsibility whatsoever for their criminal acts because an inspector didn’t catch it? It’s a very simple question you seem unwilling to answer.

 

From the way you set the topic, and the way you write, I can easily conclude that you are a fan of George Foreman. But don't worry - I am too.
However, even though we are both fans of George Foreman, we still owe it to our objectivity to be above our emotions.
The completely legitimate victory of Muhammad Ali cannot be disputed with the arguments you stated.
However, there is one thing that could (eventually) and with full right challenge Muhammad Ali's victory.
It's the story of the glass of water planted on George Foreman by, I think (but don't take my word for it) his doctor. There was some chemical in that glass of water, which weakened his psychophysical performance.
Of course I don't know if the story about the glass of water is true, or just an urban legend, and there's no way for me to prove it.

 

I like to think that during his more logical moments George realises that he was talking and thinking nonsense. We can but hope,Richard! Nice guy as I'm sure George is.

 

I mentioned earlier, every Champ ultimately does what he has to do to win. So does every challenger.

I don't see anything illegal about Ali using whatever means necessary to win the title, barring using lead in the gloves, wielding his corner stool, blatantly and repeatedly butting and hitting low, etc.

His tactics won him the fight, and there was no flagrant "cheating" in my eyes.

I do understand how this, probably the greatest and most impressive win in heavyweight history, could be subject to suspicion and nit-picking. However, Ali was making a fool out of George in the early rounds, before he ever even started up with the rope a dope. He had already gotten into his head, and surprised the hell out of him with those brash lead rights and generally contemptuous attitude.

No, this was a perfectly valid win. To me Sugar Ray Leonard's "victory" over Marvelous Marvin Hagler was significantly more dubious....one ran, got hurt a few times, and threw arm punches, while the other never got hurt, stayed aggressive and sat into his punches.

George got belittled, jabbed and lead righted all to hell, foolishly expended his energy chasing and mostly missing punches, caught a straight right to the jaw that came out of nowhere, and got knocked on his ass. Even the ref had seen enough, he was done.

He got beat, largely because he let the opponent lead him. As great as Foreman turned out to be, he knows how dumb he looked, thus all the excuses.

 

True, Every fighter does what he has to do to win but then he should not cry when those illegal tactics are committed against him.

 

Watch it again you might change your mind ...

 

Didn't Foreman suffer an injury in the fight with his sparring partner (an arcade cut), so Foreman had plenty of time to acclimatize?
The original date of the fight was pushed back by several weeks.
Or am I misinformed?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rumble_in_the_Jungle#Build-up_and_delay_due_to_injury