Log in or Sign up

Did Ali duck anyone?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by fg2227, Aug 17, 2007.

Page 4 of 5

Sweet Science Peaceful Muslim Warrior Full Member

Joined:

Jun 20, 2007

Messages:

1,116

Likes Received:

8

Duodenum said:

It was reportedly on February 26, 1957, in the Chicago Golden Gloves Quarterfinals, that 17 year old seasoned amateur hometowner Green handed the 15 year old Clay his final defeat until the FOTC. Most reports I've found so far have it recorded as a second round technical knockout, though a couple have it listed as a third round stoppage. Green was the 1958 Chicago Golden Gloves LHW Champion. It is alleged that a photograph taken shows Green standing over young Clay on the floor after a knockdown.

As a professional, Green posted a record of 12W (6 KO) 2L 0D from 1959 to 1969, and handed Amos Johnson his first defeat early in their careers. Apparently, Green and Ali remained friendly for over 20 years.

I can find very little about Green on-line:huh . The best source for more information about this occurrance would probably be the sports pages of a Chicago newspaper gone to press on the following day. If footage of this event exists, an indication of it might be identified there. (A Louisville, KY sports section for 2-27-1957 might also include more news concerning this match.)

That's about the best I can do for now. There are a couple of entries for Green on boxwreck, including a brief biography with a mugshot:deal.

Nothing I've located about him indicates he was a southpaw. That is my own potentially faulty recollection of an interview Howard Cosell conducted with Ali when Muhammad resigned his WBA HW Title in 1979, after he was asked about his difficulties with left handed opposition. He mentioned losing to a southpaw in the amateurs, and I believe it's Green whose name he mentioned.
Click to expand...

Many thanks for that info Duodenum, really appreciate it mate. :thumbsup

Sweet Science, Aug 23, 2007

#46

Duodenum Boxing Junkie Full Member

Joined:

Apr 18, 2007

Messages:

11,618

Likes Received:

315

Sweet Science said:

Many thanks for that info Duodenum, really appreciate it mate. :thumbsup
Click to expand...

I'm just a bloke doing the best I can.

Duodenum, Aug 23, 2007

#47

My dinner with Conteh Tending Bepi Ros' grave again Full Member

Joined:

Dec 18, 2004

Messages:

12,059

Likes Received:

3,564

I have an interview with Kent Green from 1978, I'll have to find it. It also comments, verbatim, on the original fight report from the amateur section of Boxing News (from 1958).

My dinner with Conteh, Aug 23, 2007

#48
Sweet Science Peaceful Muslim Warrior Full Member

Joined:

Jun 20, 2007

Messages:

1,116

Likes Received:

8

My dinner with Conteh said:

I have an interview with Kent Green from 1978, I'll have to find it. It also comments, verbatim, on the original fight report from the amateur section of Boxing News (from 1958).
Click to expand...

Please let me know if you find the Interview and fight report, I'd love to have a read of it.

Sweet Science, Aug 23, 2007

#49

Titan1 Boxing Junkie Full Member

Joined:

Oct 18, 2004

Messages:

12,798

Likes Received:

2,619

Possibly Norton in the 77-78 stage.

Titan1, Oct 19, 2010

#50
Pachilles Boxing Addict Full Member

Joined:

Nov 15, 2009

Messages:

6,294

Likes Received:

28

So there we have it, he ducked people whom he actually fought several times past his prime.

Pachilles, Oct 19, 2010

#51
Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

Joined:

Jan 4, 2008

Messages:

28,254

Likes Received:

13,283

Senya13 said: ↑

He refused to give rematches to Doug Jones and Billy Daniels after he struggled with them.
Click to expand...

This I doubt. He schooled Young in an exhibition in 1966. Why would he do an exhibition with him, but duck a regular fight?

He didn't really press enough for a rematch with Joe Frazier for a while after his first official loss.
Click to expand...

Now this is dead wrong. He called for a rematch several times (after the Quarry rematch for example) if anything I think Joe was a bit reluctant.

But after Norton III Ali clearly avoided tough challenges (Foreman and Norton).

Bokaj, Oct 19, 2010

#52

janitor VIP Member Full Member

Joined:

Feb 15, 2006

Messages:

71,665

Likes Received:

27,380

Pachilles said: ↑

So there we have it, he ducked people whom he actually fought several times past his prime.
Click to expand...

Esentialy.

There are always going to be tactical decisions in matchind a champion, and you can always find something to criticise.

If anybody genuinely got screwed it was Ken Norton, at the end of Ali's reign. That was perhaps the narrow window where he should have ascended to the lineal title.

janitor, Oct 19, 2010

#53
leverage Active Member Full Member

Joined:

Dec 27, 2006

Messages:

1,372

Likes Received:

15

Duodenum said: ↑

As Bonavena said, Ali was a "chicken," who fattened up his record on tomato cans and stiffs like Shavers, Norton, Foreman, Frazier, Young, Lyle and Quarry and Chuvalo, or ne'er do wells like Liston, Patterson, Cleveland Williams, Folley, Mac Foster, Bob Foster, Jimmy Ellis, London, Moore, Cooper, Bugner and Mathis.

When he identified an opponent who was a particularly easy touch, he'd carry that sucker to dupe the public into thinking that sap was a genuine threat to beat him. Since he discovered that his easiest prey was Frazier and Norton, he maneuvered his way into not one, but TWO rematches with each, for a total of four more easy paydays.

That cowardly punk should have given Wepner a rematch, but instead, he ducks a second encounter with the heavyweight Jim Driscoll to cruise his way to yet another easy win over that warmed over corpse Frazier. (What a pansy!)

He wanted no part of Rudi Lubbers a second time around, and Blue Lewis nearly made him **** in his pants before the whole world. Southpaw Mildenberger made him **** bricks.

Much to Ali's dismay, he discovered that he couldn't duck Bonavena forever, but he did manage to evade Ringo for three years, until he had a chance to build himself up to the point where Oscar might not blow him completely over, as the Argentine nearly did Frazier. How scared of Bonavena was he? Well, he finally couldn't avoid signing a contract to face that deaded bull in Tokyo, so he bribed his local draft board to reclassify him from 4F to 1A for military induction. But when he learned to his horror that the military was going to release him to meet his contractual obligation to Bonavena, he refused to be inducted, and begged the authorities to lock him in prison so he'd be safe from Ringo. Unfortunately, he didn't have sufficient funds to adequately bribe them, so that terrified kid wound up in the ring with Charley Goldman's other protege, Marciano. Eventually, Ali gunned down Bonavena outside a Las Vegas whorehouse, so he wouldn't have to face him again.

When Rocky realized how easily he could take Ali, even at 45, he decided to challenge him to a real fight. Knowing that he would otherwise be doomed, Ali bribed an airport mechanic to sabotage the plane Marciano was flying in.

It wasn't just Bonavena, Lewis, Marciano, Lubbers and Wepner that he was afraid of, but he didn't want any part of Evangelista in a rematch either. Finally, after he saw Mike Rossman thrash Galindez and Traversaro, he decided to quit, rather that have to defend his ill gotten title against the Jewish Bomber.

Now that I've studiously set the record straight, who's the real mallard?
Click to expand...

Pure, 100% bull****! You didn't set anything straight, the only thing you did was let people know how ignorant you are. You obviously know very little if anything about boxing if you really believe what you wrote.

leverage, Oct 19, 2010

#54
AndrewFFC Well-Known Member Full Member

Joined:

Jun 12, 2009

Messages:

2,501

Likes Received:

3

AnthonyJ74 said: ↑

I think Ali probably ducked Larry Holmes prior to Holmes winning the WBC belt. Ali knew that Holmes was a good fighter from all of the years that they sparred together. Holmes was a rated contender for quite a while before he fought Norton in '78. Ali fought guys like Richard Dunn, Jean Pierre Coopman, Alfredo Evangelista and Chuck Wepner; Larry Holmes was better than all of those guys put together! Ali fought Holmes in 1980 because he had to, as Holmes was the legitimate champion. But when Ali had the belt and Holmes was a contender, I don't think Ali was too interested in swapping punches with Holmes!
Click to expand...

So Ali ducked someone he actually fought (at a later stage, when he himself was a worse fighter and Holmes a better fighter)?

AndrewFFC, Oct 19, 2010

#55
reznick In the 7.2% Full Member

Joined:

Mar 17, 2010

Messages:

15,903

Likes Received:

7,639

All I know, is that Ali fought Shavers in 1977. 1977!!

Only a mad man would do that after such an illustrious career. But you know what, he did that fight for Shavers, and he did it for us. He knew if he didn't fight Shavers, it would have looked bad for the record books.

So he fought Earnie, because he promised him, and he also fought him for you, me, and all of us. He did it for the boxing enthusiasts and historians like ourselves. woohoo!

ALI ALI ALI!

sorry I get carried away....

reznick, Oct 19, 2010

#56

Boxed Ears this my daddy's account (RIP daddy) Full Member

Joined:

Jul 28, 2009

Messages:

56,506

Likes Received:

11,024

Sweet Science said: ↑

I once read in Foreman's autobiography, that Ali had approached Foreman and asked him to fight Norton. I can't remember exactly what Foreman said word for word as I read it years ago but the gist of it was: 'Ali asked me to fight Norton as he admitted he could't beat him and he needed me to get him out of the picture before he would fight me again'

Obviously I don't know how much truth to that there is but who knows?
Click to expand...

Yeah, I read it in Foreman's book too. It was right before Ali said "George, I'm getting fat. The Greatest can't be fat. I need a new way to cook burgers. A less fatty way...any ideas?"

Boxed Ears, Oct 19, 2010

#57
Stone Roses Guest

Absolutely not.

Stone Roses, Oct 20, 2010

#58
Stevie G Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

Joined:

Jul 17, 2009

Messages:

25,252

Likes Received:

8,815

Duodenum said: ↑

As Bonavena said, Ali was a "chicken," who fattened up his record on tomato cans and stiffs like Shavers, Norton, Foreman, Frazier, Young, Lyle and Quarry and Chuvalo, or ne'er do wells like Liston, Patterson, Cleveland Williams, Folley, Mac Foster, Bob Foster, Jimmy Ellis, London, Moore, Cooper, Bugner and Mathis.

When he identified an opponent who was a particularly easy touch, he'd carry that sucker to dupe the public into thinking that sap was a genuine threat to beat him. Since he discovered that his easiest prey was Frazier and Norton, he maneuvered his way into not one, but TWO rematches with each, for a total of four more easy paydays.

That cowardly punk should have given Wepner a rematch, but instead, he ducks a second encounter with the heavyweight Jim Driscoll to cruise his way to yet another easy win over that warmed over corpse Frazier. (What a pansy!)

He wanted no part of Rudi Lubbers a second time around, and Blue Lewis nearly made him **** in his pants before the whole world. Southpaw Mildenberger made him **** bricks.

Much to Ali's dismay, he discovered that he couldn't duck Bonavena forever, but he did manage to evade Ringo for three years, until he had a chance to build himself up to the point where Oscar might not blow him completely over, as the Argentine nearly did Frazier. How scared of Bonavena was he? Well, he finally couldn't avoid signing a contract to face that deaded bull in Tokyo, so he bribed his local draft board to reclassify him from 4F to 1A for military induction. But when he learned to his horror that the military was going to release him to meet his contractual obligation to Bonavena, he refused to be inducted, and begged the authorities to lock him in prison so he'd be safe from Ringo. Unfortunately, he didn't have sufficient funds to adequately bribe them, so that terrified kid wound up in the ring with Charley Goldman's other protege, Marciano. Eventually, Ali gunned down Bonavena outside a Las Vegas whorehouse, so he wouldn't have to face him again.

When Rocky realized how easily he could take Ali, even at 45, he decided to challenge him to a real fight. Knowing that he would otherwise be doomed, Ali bribed an airport mechanic to sabotage the plane Marciano was flying in.

It wasn't just Bonavena, Lewis, Marciano, Lubbers and Wepner that he was afraid of, but he didn't want any part of Evangelista in a rematch either. Finally, after he saw Mike Rossman thrash Galindez and Traversaro, he decided to quit, rather that have to defend his ill gotten title against the Jewish Bomber.

Now that I've studiously set the record straight, who's the real mallard?
Click to expand...

:good

Stevie G, Oct 20, 2010

#59
Stevie G Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

Joined:

Jul 17, 2009

Messages:

25,252

Likes Received:

8,815

Marciano Frazier said: ↑

Nope. You name a top 10 heavyweight anytime from the early '60s through the late '70s, and the odds are Ali fought them. There has never been a heavyweight champion who cleaned out the top ranks of the division so thoroughly as Ali did.
Click to expand...

A veritable who's who of boxing :good It's true that after Manila,Muhammad was n't interested in being quite as much of a fighting champion as he was prior,but he'd already laid down the most impressive resume of all. And he did offer Foreman a rematch in 1975. George was too interested in fighting a meaningless exhibition in Toronto.

Stevie G, Oct 20, 2010

#60

(You must log in or sign up to reply here.)

Page 4 of 5