Did Ali have the easiest Heavyweight reign 65'-67'

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Il Duce, Nov 30, 2010.


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  1. Il Duce

    Il Duce Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Jear,,,,,

    If I put a 'good list' together, you will say, Oh, he lost to this guy or that guy.
    The problem is, while Ali was playing 'tag' with the softer touches, the
    tough guys in the division had to take fights that they didn't want,
    to EAT and SUPPORT their FAMILIES.

    First and foremost, Eddie Machen was supposed to get the winner of the
    Liston-Clay I fight, no matter who won.
    So, Ali-Liston (re-match) gets set, and then gets postponed because of
    Ali's symptom's.
    What the hell was Eddie Machen going to do for a year and half, sit and wait.
    So he had to take the (7/64) Floyd Patterson fight, he lost, and that
    eliminated one decent fighter Ali would have faced.
    Of course in 1964, at age 32, Eddie was 2-notches below his prime anyway, but still
    a capable Top 4 fighter.
     
    Il Duce, Dec 1, 2010
    Il Duce, Dec 1, 2010
    #151
  2. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Are you sure? A few pages back I asked you for a source on Machen's planned '66 title shot, do you have one? What about the above, anything definite for that? I'm asking because I have a series of short interviews with Eddie who they wheeled out for Ali I due to his "success" against Liston. I've never seen any mention of this fight being made.
     
    McGrain, Dec 1, 2010
    McGrain, Dec 1, 2010
    #152
  3. Il Duce

    Il Duce Boxing Addict Full Member

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    The San Francisco Chronicle, 1972, following his death.

    Eddie was the #1 rated heavyweight in line for a title shot, when the
    Liston-Clay I fight took place.
    The announcers at that fight mentioned it well before the fight took place.
    Of course, I'm sure you saw the famous interview after the bout, with
    the announcer asking 'Will you now fight Eddie Machen'?.
     
    Il Duce, Dec 1, 2010
    Il Duce, Dec 1, 2010
    #153
  4. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    What does the Chronicle say? Is there any way you could link me in? I'd dearly love to see it.

    What's your source on the WBA rankings?

    Ring ranks Machen at #6 at the time of the fight.
     
    McGrain, Dec 1, 2010
    McGrain, Dec 1, 2010
    #154
  5. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    "Winner of the WBA sanctioned HW title bout between Terrell and Eddie Machen Friday naight may get a September match here with Cassius Clay, generally accepted heavyweight champion."

    This is from the Nushua Telegraph March 4, 1965, and it's the closest I've come to a suggestion that Machen was in line for a shot at Ali. Of course, Machen lost that fight.
     
    McGrain, Dec 1, 2010
    McGrain, Dec 1, 2010
    #155
  6. Il Duce

    Il Duce Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I'll try to find the date of the article.
    It was right after Eddie died.

    That #6 Rating. What month magazine is that?

    What 5 fighters were ahead of him.

    The proposed bout in early 1966 between Ali-Machen was a hypothetical.
    Eddie would have been a more worthy opponent, than toughman George.
    Really, George got (2) title shots within 5 months, including a loss to
    Eduardo Corletti.
     
    Il Duce, Dec 1, 2010
    Il Duce, Dec 1, 2010
    #156
  7. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Febuary of that year. Ali, Liston, Jones, Terrell, Williams and Folley were all listed in front of him.

    I disagree. Machen had had serious mental issues at the time, and hadn't beaten a ranked contender since his comeback. He was compromised, and had no scalp of any note to make a title shot viable. He also lost a handful around this time and was handled by Patterson. I can't see what kind of threat he posed, if i'm honest, and i'm one of his biggest fans.

    The WBA rankings for the time are highly compromised as they were ranking neither Ali or Liston. Even there #1 was only really their #3, at least until Ali eliminated Liston all together.
     
    McGrain, Dec 1, 2010
    McGrain, Dec 1, 2010
    #157
  8. Rock0052

    Rock0052 Loyal Member Full Member

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    Props to the thread starter for taking on a sacred cow in this thread. Granted I've only been here a couple of years, but it seems like there's no problem scrutinizing/knocking the title reigns of other Heavyweight champs like Dempsey, Holmes, Wlad, Louis, and Tyson but for whatever reasons Ali's first title reign has completely escaped that and has, understandably, created more backlash. It's an important thread because that version of Ali is literally worshipped as being unbeatable by many, and like other impressive heavyweights, level of opposition certainly played a role.

    The real crux of the point is this: Take the contenders, in their respective states when Ali fought them. Now ask yourself how many Heavyweights you'd peg to go the exact same 9-0 against that list of fighters. I think more heavyweights could've done it than people think.
     
    Rock0052, Dec 1, 2010
    Rock0052, Dec 1, 2010
    #158
  9. bigjake

    bigjake Active Member Full Member

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    bigjake, Dec 1, 2010
    bigjake, Dec 1, 2010
    #159
  10. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    They weren't a great crop of contenders by any means.

    Some of Ali's second reign was pretty awful too. Wepner, Coopman, Dunn, Evangelista were atrocious. Lyle was undeserving, coming off a one-sided loss to Jimmy Young.

    But this is boxing. A champion's not expected to fight "killers" every time out, or be keen to get every challenger when they are at their absolute peak. That's not the way it's played.
     
    Unforgiven, Dec 1, 2010
    Unforgiven, Dec 1, 2010
    #160
  11. Il Duce

    Il Duce Boxing Addict Full Member

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    McGrain,

    Are those ratings from February 1964?
    Something seems amiss.
    It is common knowledge that Eddie Machen was despondent at the end of
    1962, and did not fight again until September 1963.
    He did not fight for 14 months, before he came back.
    He always battled severe depression.
    But he did put together 5 good wins, all by knock-out, over mediocre opponents
    at the end of 63', and early 64. He finally stayed active.
    He was in position, and still considered a viable top contender for a 1964 Title shot.

    Big Jake,

    Easy there, Mr. Atlantic Province.
    I'm sure no way in hell Eddie Machen could beat Ali in March 1966.
    Not at 34, and in a personal financial mess, to go along with other issues.
    It's just the damn guy deserved a better fate, and was avoided because he was a cutie, and could make someone look bad.
    Yes, George at least, had a 'punchers chance'.
     
    Il Duce, Dec 1, 2010
    Il Duce, Dec 1, 2010
    #161
  12. Jear

    Jear Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Well can you give me a timeline with opponents you feel Ali should progressed down during his first reign.
     
    Jear, Dec 1, 2010
    Jear, Dec 1, 2010
    #162
  13. Dempsey1238

    Dempsey1238 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I think Ali should have given Liston a rematch. I think it is right for the reining champ to give the former champ a other shot.

    Most first title defenses are against the guy they took the title away.

    Liston gave Patterson other go around.
    Ingo gave Patterson a shot to redeem himself.
    Marciano gave Walcott other thumping.
    Louis gave Braddock ten percent of his earnings for ten years lol.
    Tunney gave Dempsey a return.

    You see?
     
    Dempsey1238, Dec 1, 2010
    Dempsey1238, Dec 1, 2010
    #163
  14. Dempsey1238

    Dempsey1238 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Rules have change since the past 100 years.
    But I give it ago.

    Sullivan perhaps?
    Corbett maybe?
    Jeff?
    I give Johnson a good chance.
    Dempsey and Tunney would do it imo.
    I think the Sharkey's Baer's Carnera's ete would fail. They were pretty much done after winning the title for the most point.
    I give Louis and Marciano a good chance to repeat what Ali.
    Perhaps prime Patterson.
    Liston prime of couse
    Ali who did do it.
    Frazier of couse.
    Holmes and Tyson
    Lewis and the Kilts perhaps.
    Maybe Holyfiled.
     
    Dempsey1238, Dec 1, 2010
    Dempsey1238, Dec 1, 2010
    #164
  15. Jear

    Jear Well-Known Member Full Member

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    And do we take those heavyweights at the same comparative stage as Ali was too? 22 years old to 25, Undisputed champion who over that period beat the entire top 5 from the middle year which happened to contain two ATGs

    Top 5 in 1965:

    1. Sonny Liston
    2. Floyd Patterson
    3. Ernie Terrell
    4. Cleveland Williams
    5. George Chuvalo
     
    Jear, Dec 1, 2010
    Jear, Dec 1, 2010
    #165
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