Did Ali lose his speed after the 3 year lay off?

no matter. Going that many years fighting off challengers in consecutive fights who want to win the title is difficult to achieve for that length of time. Look at Tyson. Look at Lewis.

Put Bonavena in place of any of the challengers Ali defended his crown against and he would give Ali as tough a fight as he got in 1970.

would you say Quarry was a better opponent than Cleveland Williams, Brian London, Karl Mildenberger, Henry Cooper and Ernie Terrell were when Ali fought them?

well would you pick Brian London to beat Quarry and Bonavena? How about Terrell and Folley? Are they beating Oscar and Jerry? I know that Chuvalo and Patterson fought both Quarry and Bonavena But Floyd put his back out against Ali. I don’t think that the 1965 fight was a fair representation of Floyd Patterson’s capabilities. By comparison Patterson gave Ali a tougher fight in 1972.

Ali had a good sparring partner though didn’t he?

 

So the six years between 29 and 35 doesn't matter?

In 1985, 35 was quite ancient. 29 wasn't a particularly old age in 1971

Why would he be as good as a 30 year old Patterson, when he was beaten by the 37 year old version?

And, it bears repeating, he was also well beaten by the fighter who was Ali's sparring partner at the time.

Terrell was definitely superior to Quarry, I'd say. He was unbeaten in mature age when he faced Ali and had among other things beaten Chuvalo, who would go on to beat Quarry.

Mildenberger also had a number of good wins and he wasn't as prone to cuts as Jerry, so I'd probably have him ahead or at least even.

I think I'd have 30-year old Floyd over him as well. And Chuvalo did beat him later...

London, Cooper and Williams would all be below Quarry.

So Quarry would come somewhere in the middle of Ali's 60's challengers for me.

Yes, and Floyd himself has said that that version of Ali was inferior to the 1965 one. Chuvalo has said the same thing.

I think Terrell would beat both Quarry and Bonavena. Folley... well, he did lose to Oscar a year or so after facing Ali, but he was really coming on in years at that time. And as I said, we know that Chuvalo did beat Quarry and Floyd beat Bonavena.

I truly don't know why they should be seen as anything that special. They'd probably be top 5 contenders in the early to mid 60's. Getting some wins over other top contenders and losing to some of them. Like they did in the late 60's and early 70's.

 

The speed of movement and stamina were the main differences according to them, from memory.

 

It depends. In the early 70s when I'f2fm shape he could still move better than anyone else. Not how he once did. After Zaire he did change his style.

 

Ali didn't lose much speed but he lost some coordination with his feet and hands. He would glide in and out. Only SRR and Roy Jones had similar gifts that I have seen.

 

Well that’s true.

that’s fair overall. I don’t think Quarry or Bonavena were world beaters. Even you have said yourself they were as tough as anything Ali fought in the 1960s.

Because Patterson had a bad back? Film shows him being lifted up in the air between rounds in an effort to un-crick his back.

 

No I haven't. I had Terrell and Patterson ahead, and if we're talking 60's opponents overall - I'd certainly have Liston ahead as well. By some margin.

I said they would probably be in the midstream of Ali's contenders.

The back problems occurred after 5 or 6 rds. Already after 4 rds Ali was so superior that the commentators drew comparisons to Johnson-Burns. Floyd was never in that fight, even though the back turned a hopeless cause into a nightmare. Props to Floyd for his bravery, though.

 

Ali lost his leg speed far more than his hand speed which is over rated mostly because he endlessly talked about how he was the fastest heavyweight that ever lived when he was not .. Patterson was faster. Tunney was faster. From all I've read Corbett was faster ... Holmes seems to have been as fast with his hands .. Michael Does as well .. Ali was very fast but not a level above the best .. That aside he was very talented, super under rated strength, tremendous chin and stamina and an unquestioned heart and recuperative powers ..

 

Not the effort he brought to Lewiston surly?

 

Eh....they say that but Wiliams was shot. I think Liston 1 was his best fight from the 60's

 

It' just hard to point to that fight when he didn't have a live body in front of him. You can be creative when your hitting the heavybag.