Did Ali ruin legacies with his skill?

:huh

 

You take the **** not only once but twice, to be on the safe side, about a thread question that's very reasonable. Both Liston and Foreman were thought by the absolute majority to become dominant and long reigning champions. Reznick only asked whether we think these predictions would have come true if not for the x-factor that was Ali.

A perfectly reasonable thread question, but you, for some inexplicable reason, persist with (pretty lame) sarcasm instead of giving a straight answer or just staying out. Hence, "What's the bug up your ass?".

Capisce?

 

:good

Well, when you started out about every thread and post of yours was about him. Your agenda was evident, so I stopped looking into your threads. No offence but when certain posters make threads on certain fighters I try to avoid them.

Nah, I don´t. I wrote arguably because there are people who really think so. I don´t. I´m a huge Duran fan, I have a poster of Duran-Leonard I in my floor, two pictures of him in my living room and own a Duran-T-shirt.

However, Leonard really is the only true atg he beat. Cuevas, Palomino, Barkley, Marcel, Buchanan, DeJesus are all borderline guys. Duran is as great as he is not because he beat a huge number of atgs but because he could hang in, fight on even terms and even beat atgs despite beeing older and smaller, and because of depth of his resume and his achievements.

 

You dismiss my posts as "(pretty lame) sarcasm", but you describe reznick's post is a "perfectly reasonable thread question".
OK.

But actually, what I said was very much in tune with reznick's questions :

"Where would Foreman have been had he not fought in Zaire? Champion from Frazier to Moorer without a ten year break in between?"

and ..

"Also, do you guys think if Ali did not exist, and Foreman did not take a 10 year break, that Foreman would have held the belt the whole time?"


So, it's "perfectly reasonable" to consider Foreman reigning continuously from 1973 until the mid-to-late 1990s, but my estimation of him reigning until 2003 is mocked as lunacy or lame sarcasm !?

 

If there was no Ali,,,,,,,,,,

Sonny Liston take his Title into 1965 and retires, as there are no 'Big Money' fights
on the horizon.
His wife Geraldine wanted him out of the business in 1965 too. 15-years was enough.

1966 thru 1968 a mish-mosh, until Joe Frazier.

Joe Frazier's run 1968 thru 1973.
Maybe Sonny Liston comes out of retirement for Big $$$ in 1969, to trade blows with
Smokin Joe.

George Foreman ruins Joe Frazier's legacy in 1973, and runs with the Title until
1977 when he becomes bored, and Ken Norton shows no interest in fighting
Big George again.

Georeg Foreman decides to have one more night of fights, as he agrees to defend his title versus '4' different fighters on the same day, at '4' different locations.

A Bob Arum and Top Rank Promotion.

12:00 PM,,,, vs Lorenzo Zanon in Trieste, Italy
4:00 PM,,,, vs Jean Pierre Coopman in Brussells, Belgium
8:00 PM,,,, vs Richard Dunn in Munich, Germany
12:00 AM,, vs Afredo Evangilista in Lisbon, Spain

 

I like this.

I don't think he'd retire without first taking the Antonio Inoki "fight" though !

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I think the Inoki style is begging for some of this :

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MR. UN,

I forgot,,,,,,,Antonion Inoki is flown in, and is the 'Celebrity Referee'

After 'Big George' knocks out all the Challengers in the 1st Round, he has nowhere to go.

But, then Antonio Inoki challenges Big George to an All-World Title in Japan.

Bob Arum and Top Rank outbid Don King for the promotional rights. $30,000,000.
Bob Arum, to stir up interest, offers up as the Celebrity Referee
the popular Louisville, Kentucky game Show Host,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Cassius Clay Jr.

 

Seriously,

Sonny Liston would have no use for the title after 1965.
1964,,,,,KO 3 vs. Ingemar Johansson
1965,,,,,KO 7 vs. George Chuvalo
1965,,,,,KO 6 vs. Zora Folley

I can't see him making any 'big' money fighting the 'bakers dozen' in 1966.
Probably retires, when asked to take 'chump change' to fight Ernie Terrell.

Probably '2' organizations set-up an eliminator series of bouts.
Finally, Joe Frazier emerges as the 'World Champion' in mid-1968.

Joe Frazier, after defending his title '3' times, is offered $2,000,000 (a record) to come to
Las Vegas in December 1969 and fight Sonny Liston (who comes back for one fight).
Liston is offered $1,500,000 (a record for Title challengers).

Sonny Liston, at 41 years-old, shocks the boxing community, by knocking down
'Smokin Joe', 2-times in the 2nd Round, once in the 3rd Round, and once in the 5th
Round, before running out-of-gas.
Joe Frazier starts his grind-em-out rally in Round 7, and wears down an exhausted
Sonny Liston who cannot come out for Round 12, after absorbing a pounding in
Rounds 10 and 11, which closes his right eye (from Joe's left hooks).

The bout is labeled, 'The Fight of the 60's'

 

Without Ali, a third bout between Liston and Patterson becomes a real possibility after Patterson-Machen saw Floyd dominate an opponent he was accused of ducking during his championship years. Patterson-Powell saw him knock out an athletic opponent bigger than Liston, then he boxed in a smartly different laterally moving style for a rugged win over a peaking Chuvalo.

Floyd had regained the title once against an opponent who dethroned him via two round blowout, then came off the floor to knock him out in their rubber match. He was obscenely resilient, always in terrific physical condition, and at least three years younger than Sonny. During his post title years, he became a savvy veteran able to change his approach as needed.

Given the radical way Patterson reversed history against Ingo, his outstanding discipline and conditioning, relative youth, and late career adaptability, I do not rule out the possibility of a third title reign and four or five fight series with Liston which sees Floyd ultimately prevail.

Jerry Quarry was the one whose legacy suffered most by Ali being in the way, particularly with respect to the rematch debacle where a relaxed Muhammad completely psyched him out, causing a tensed JQ (aided considerably by his seeing what Bob Foster did to brother Mike) to gas quickly.

Neither Jerry or Jimmy Young were in the least bit intimidated by big powerful sluggers Lyle, Shavers or Mac Foster, and either one makes Foreman a former champion before George gets out of the mid 1970s. (Of course Foreman openly admits today that he purposely avoided Jerry. His obvious hesitance and evasiveness during interviews during the early 1970s about fighting JQ when asked about him by interviewers in archival footage through this period makes it clear that what he says today is far more than revisionist charity to Jerry's memory. It's a stunning contrast to Liston's expressed enthusiasm for taking on Jerry following Sonny's stoppage of Henry Clark.)

 

wtf ?

 

The other key match where Ali may have had his most significant effect on legacy was in a bout he lost. Frazier was never the same after the FOTC. Take away the debilitating effects of that war, complete with subsequent extended hospitalization, then at the worst, he comes out of Kingston no more diminished by Foreman than Patterson was by Ingo or Liston.

Granted, arthritis and high blood pressure would still have been breaking down the body of a swarmer whose style does not lend itself to career longevity. But the way a 225 pound 32 year old Smoke altered his style for his 1976 rematch with Foreman raises some questions about what a lighter and more mobile 205 pound (or even lighter-he idealized 199 as an optimal competitive weight in earlier interviews) 28 or 29 year old Joe might have been able to pull off without the duress of an FOTC behind him. (He did get off the floor in Bonavena I, recover and adapt to a severe crisis, so who's to say it would have been absolutely impossible for a better conditioned and more motivated Frazier to do it in Jamaica?)