Did Ali ruin legacies with his skill?

FOTC ?


Are you saying Ali won the event ? :yep



BTW, Frazier would never have beaten Foreman, even if he'd never fought ALi.

Bonavena is not Foreman and Frazier's style was all wrong for Big George.

 

It was written that, "The knockdown made Frazier a champion. Getting up made Ali a legend." (This also seemed to be Cosell's spin on it, and Howard was a big a supporter of Frazier's greatness as any broadcaster on the airwaves, even after Jamaica.)

Joe had already demonstrated that he could give ground and provide angles, as he did with the physically powerful Chuvalo and Stander. Between Peralta and Young, only Ali remained upright and able to compete longer against Foreman than a shot, aging and overweight Frazier did in his rematch with George.

Styles do make fights, and it would always have been a tremendous challenge for even the peak Frazier of 1969 to 1971 to win a first time match over Foreman. But if we had never seen Patterson-Johansson II & III, most of us would be saying with absolute conviction that Floyd never could have beaten Ingo. As it is, the vast majority do say that about Liston-Patterson. But a severely reduced post Manila Smoke did far better against George than Floyd did in his rematch with Sonny. Given Joe's underrated mobility and unquestioned heart, stamina and late round power, combined with Foreman's suspect endurance, no, I do not rule out that a prime Frazier in peak condition could have somehow pulled off a rematch win.

Over the 17 wins George mustered between Peralta II in May 1971, and Young in March 1977, it was actually Joe who lasted the longest in their second bout. (The record says Lyle went two seconds longer in round five, but he was counted out while Smoke was on his feet when Futch stopped it, and an earlier round of Foreman-Lyle only lasted two minutes, so an utterly shot Frazier should get the credit here. Yes, Ron had a rusty and inactive Foreman down twice, but not without going down twice and being counted out himself. Joe followed Lyle against a far more battle ready Big George, and acquitted himself with honor.) The Foreman-Frazier Uniondale rematch suggest that a prime Smoke could indeed have dragged George into deeper water with unceasing bulldog tenacity, where the tide might well have turned, particularly over the championship distance with a brute who had never gone past ten.

 

Wasn't Quarry ranked when Machen beat him?

 

Take Ali's skill away and he is nothing more than an average fighter.

He would not have the size to beat the likes of VK.

Ali made a career out of his skill.

 

Maybe ,,,,,,Ernie Terrell..

With no Muhammad Ali, does 'The Big E' run the table in 1967, 1968 and battle
Smokin Joe in 1969.

After the Ali debacle, Ernie fought like a 'mummy' versus Thad Spencer and
Manuel Ramos. Probably the '2' most uninspired performances by a good boxer 'ever'.

 

I think Frazier gets there in late 1967, vaulted to the top by Chuvalo and a rematch with Bonavena. Joe halted the best streak of George's career. Following Machen and Jones as it did, Chuvalo stamped him as red hot. With this accelerated time table, I don't see Terrell eluding him until 1969. As WBA Champion, Ernie was a little more active than Jimmy Ellis, fighting every seven to eight months, and certainly didn't shy away from the "unification" with Ali.

 

:good

I wasn't being sarcastic.
But nor was I being 100% serious.

I doubt any fighter would really be bothered to reign for 30 years and 60 defences, even if they were capable. It's unprecedented, to put it mildly.

BUT I do think Foreman could have possibly been champion for a VERY LONG time if he hadn't fought Ali.
We have to consider that Larry Holmes probably wouldn't have developed as he did, if he was just brought in as another challenger to fight Foreman in '76 or '77. Also, Foreman may well have improved had he not had the Ali fight that psyched him out. This would also effect Jimmy Young's chances against Foreman.
The mid-late-70s and the early 80s didn't produce anyone else I'd see as a threat against a disciplined and developing and motivated Foreman.
Realistically, in this purely hypothetical situation, I can see even a 37-year-old experienced and seasoned Foreman being an absolute obstacle to any Mike Tyson, who I think would have been brought along very slowly in the hope that Foreman would retire and leave the division open.

Okay, 2003 was an exaggeration, but this "hypothetical Foreman" is simply amazing !

 

I honestly don't think that either Liston or Foreman were ever going to have a long title reign.

Liston twisted his own fate by not training properly and time was not on his side.

Foreman had stylistic issues that might have seen him undone one way or another.

 

Try anybody willing to mount a serious challenge for the title.

Once a champion stops training properly, it dosnt matter how talented he is, he will bring himself down to the level of his opposition. If Evander Holyfield had got to Mike Tyson before James Douglas, then Douglas would not be verry high on your list for the next most likley person to have beaten him. It would not have taken a great fighter to do it.

Listons advancing years would have made him particularly vulnerable to a Douglas style challenger in his era and unlikley to get his career back on track once the upset had fallen.

 

Larry Holmes would of ****ed, ****ed George Foreman up worse than Ali did.

Bad bad........very bad.