Did Ali ruin legacies with his skill?

this I doubt. Holmes couldn't take foreman's best shots on the ropes. it was ali's will power and durability that won the fight. Holmes didn't exactly have ali's abilities.

if it's the 76-77 foreman then I can see it.

 

I would like to think that Larry Holmes could move just a little bit.

If Larry could take Roy Williams right hand bombs in sparring, and Jeff Merritt's left hooks,
and come out of it winning a World Championship, he may be able to move a bit...

 

Holmes could do it. He has the skills, style, durability/recovery, and the speed to beat Foreman.

 

Yeah, the thing is he would have to be a far more focussed and disciplined athlete than he even was. I mean, to reign as long as Joe Louis, or perhaps longer, takes an unrivalled degree of consistent dedication, something we cannot just gift Foreman with.
But I think his second career proved his PHYSICAL potential, and shows that he had some special mentality too.

On the other hand, if Ali wasn't around he may well have becoming overconfident and lazy and lost his title to a spoiler like Young or even Bugner, just a year or so later.

Truth is, if Foreman was going to fulfill his potential he had no business losing to Ali in the first place. As great as Ali was, he was reduced to hit and run and holding tactics, and absorbing punches by 1974 already. We have to give Ali a lot of credit but we can't just give Foreman a free pass on that. I mean, he didn't even get past the 8th round.

1970s Foreman remains something of an enigma.

 

I've got the feeling George would have been found out sooner or later anyway. If not by Young then by Holmes. He was just too flawed technically to be around for that long.

Now, Liston is another thing. Even after the two devastating losses to Ali he had a respectable remainder of his career, going through journeymen but also some fringe contenders without too much problems. I think it's reasonable too believe he could have done the same against contenders for a couple of years if not for the huge psychological blow the very embarassing losses to Ali must have dealt him.

I think he either would have gone down the path Il Duce suggests or he would have been picked off by Quarry, Ellis or Frazier when age had softened him enough. Some time 1968-1970 perhaps.

 

I think Liston threw his title away anyway, I believe the fights with Clay/Ali were likely fixed. And I think Liston was on the downslide anyway, his lifestyle and the lack of motivation/potential paydays as champion.

With Foreman, you're right he was technically flawed, but if we're talking hypotheticals I consider his potential to IMPROVE.
Also, psychologically, I think Foreman suffered far more than Liston from his loss to Ali. I don't think Liston gave a **** to be honest, 'fix' or not.

 

I think you're wrong. There are numerous accounts of how hard he trained for the rematch before it got postponed. There were an article posted here recently about just how motivated he seemed before the rematch.

Of course losing the championship, and under those circumstances, will have an effect on you. In his case it had the very tangible effect that he couldn't get a worthwhile fight, but still he could muster the motivation to do what he should in the fights he did get.

 

This is how I see it. Ali's victories over these guys were an enhancement onhis own legacy,rather than to the detriment of theirs.

 

I think Liston would fare better than Foreman in this alternate universe without Ali. He was starting to decline but he was still good enough to have beaten a few more contenders and solid win's under his belt but I think that by 1968-1969 he'd be upset by Quarry or Frazier who catch the old champion on the decline. His legacy would be enhanced.

Foreman would have likely held the crown for a little while longer but he was simply too crude to stay undefeated for that long. Inevitably he'd be run into a Jimmy Young or run into Larry Holmes in who would take the title from him.

A compelling case can me made that Ali took away from their greatness but even in this alternate universe I don't think Foreman would be undefeated in the 70s nor do I think Liston's reign would last another decade.

I suppose so. Liston was a terrific fighter.

No. He'd run into Young, Holmes, Witherspoon, Tyson, Holyfield. He may remain a contender but his shelf life would diminish as a result of his continued fighting.

He'd be very intimidating for sure, but I think that the first guy I would confidently pick to beat him (Larry Holmes) would be even greater if his coming out party was upsetting George Foreman.

 

Great minds think alike.:good

 

Ali's skills went beyond what has been discussed thus far.

No Ali, no Larry Holmes.

Larry started late in boxing, but caught up thanks to the graduate course that was sparring with Ali over an extended time.

I've said it before: without Ali, George's grin may have filled the Earth.

It takes 10 years at something to achieve greatness. Foreman turned pro in 1969, after a negligible amateur career (though thanks to his power, he romped to Olympic gold.)

He became champion after about 5 measly years in the ring, destroying an all-time great in all-time great fashion, thanks to his power of course.

But he did have a foundation of boxing skills: his jab, footwork, range negotiation in center ring, counterpunching instinct, and punching form were very good. With more experience, he would have only improved, especially with two things:

a) a scare by, say, a Jimmy Young or other boxer, in which he prevailed yet learned the need to not neglect boxing skills and stamina work.

b) a born-again experience. Not a loss in San Juan, but a change in his outlook on life that may have come with maturity, particularly as a seasoned champion approaching 50-0, respected the world over. He may have become a beloved older champion who broke all records and retired unbeaten.

The young, loutish Foreman certainly had these things in him, as we would actually see: idealism and vision, showmanship, love for the title, perseverance.

Without Ali, Larry Holmes would have been a capable journeyman contender.

And George Foreman just may have retired at 50-0, or 55-0, and still gone on to sell his grill!

 

I will grant you that Liston did not train properly for Patterson II but:

A. Floyd was tailor made for him.

B. Patterson was beaten mentaly before the opening bell owing to the previous fight.

No heavyweight in history has ever been such a hard ass that they have been able to get away with neglecting their training long term. Dempsey didn't, Louis didn't, Tyson didn't and Liston would not have.

 

:thumbsup

 

A. What are the concrete evidence of Liston slipping badly in training? Lot of talk, but little to back it up.

B. Except for the two Ali fights, Liston's continued career was quite respectable, even though he didn't have much to fight for since it was ruined after those fights. If he didn't slip up completely under such circumstances there is little to suggest he would if he had a title to defend.

 

Bokaj,

Your an excellent poster, but on the Sonny Liston (back ground stuff)

After his first fight in Miami Beach, he headed back home to Denver.
Through the months of July, August and September in 1964, he was involved in intense
fitness training.
Though he was in good shape, he had failed to score a single knock-down over
his heavyweight sparring partners in the Denver Gym.
His punch was slowly escaping him.

This, according to his Camp Manager, Archie Pirolli.