Did Ali thumb Terrell's eye?

I have yet to see something that suggests that damage to Terrell's eye was caused by intentional foul. But I agree that Ali's win could be devalued if serious injury was caused to Terrell by other means than punches whether it was intentional or not.

 

I agree, without having the medical expertise to back it up.

It just seems to me that it would take pretty much force to cause the kind of injury that Ernie claimed. I'd agree with Dubbelchin that a punch with extended thumb would seem a more logical cause. But I'm no expert on such things.

And Ali's intention or lack thereof doesn't make any difference to how handicapped Ernie might or might not have been in the fight.

 

I'd say this, though, when a fighter gets a thumb in his eye you usually see an immediate reaction from him. Certainly I can't help but flinch badly myself when it happens me in sparring. I can usually take a low blow better.

Based on that I find it hard to see how someone could have his eye pushed back into its socket without some quite dramatic immediate reaction. Nothing like that is apparent anywhere in the film, from memory.

 

I wouldn't say with 100% certainty that no very obvious reaction is the same as no eye gouge, but from at least a layman's perspective I would definitely expect one from someone who has his eye pushed back into its socket.

I would also expect Terrell to make any medical evidence of such an injury public. If he had evidence that he had been badly fouled in a fight where he was outclassed and publicly humiliated, why not go public with it and prove that the one-sided loss was due to his opponent cheating?

 

actually I mean by that that there may have been damage, I aint saying there is for sure.
YOU are saying that, without evidence, I would add.


I never would say there is, without evidence. Until I get it, theres no eye gouge to me.

 

why should that be correct? just stick to whats been said, dont make it up.

you = did he gouge his eye himself
me = you are missing the fact that i see no evidence of an eye gouge
you = did he gouge his eye himself
me -sigh

 

theres nothing wrong with the sentences, CT, stop clutching at straws, it doesnt help your cause except perhaps as a tool of distraction. The weirdest thing is YOU are accusing me of it! Silly boy.

 

it says eyes.

this area is on the face.

the face gets hit a lot in boxing.

 

I think those are pretty decent sources, even though second hand. I'd agree that they do point to that he had surgery for an injury sustained in the fight, even though the 18 months lay-off doesn't necessarily have to do with that.

So:

1. There do indeed seem to have been an injury that required surgery afterwards. The injury seemed to have been a broken bone under the left eye.


2. Was this caused by a thumb and, if so, was the thumb intentional?

On top of page 74 here blows are suggested to have something to do with it: https://books.google.se/books?id=LiToY_vhnFQC&pg=PA74&lpg=PA74&dq=terrell+eye+injury+ali&source=bl&ots=V3bCT2iUCU&sig=GtRrG49Ed554HtxXta7AgAYNziU&hl=sv&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjhxPyniqbeAhUIlSwKHcyMBWQQ6AEwCnoECAMQAQ#v=onepage&q=terrell eye injury ali&f=fals

The SI also stated that Ali opened a cut under Terrell's left eye. Could the bone been broken in that process?
https://www.si.com/vault/1967/02/13/543718/cruel-ali-with-all-the-skills

Cosell and Chuvalo during the broadcast, toward the end of round 3:
"Ernies' left is getting red in the corner, George. You've noticed?
"That's right. It looks like a slight abrasion."
"That's because Ali's lefts are beginning to get through and in between those gloves."
This was right before the wrestling incident in the corner where Ernie claims his face was rubbed along the ropes. The continue to talk about the eye in between rounds.
Cosell: "There is as you said a slight abrasion and the left is quite bloodshot."
Chuvalo: "That's right, it is. Terrell has got his hands up very well, he blocked a lot of the uppercuts and hooks but the left jab has been getting through."

I don't think the film shows any moment of intentional thumbing.


3. How seriously did the injury impede Terrell? SI didn't think it seemed to hamper him much:

"It seemed an inconsequential injury, and Terrell was still fighting strongly and well, scoring on those occasions when he could crowd Clay into the ropes. But, according to Terrell, Clay had damaged his eye so badly that he was unable to see clearly.

...

If Terrell's vision was impaired from the second round on, the fact was not apparent immediately."

Was a while ago since I watched the fight, but as I said previously, if a debilitating injury was sustained injury was caused by a thumb I would have expected a strong reaction from Ernie, and don't remember any such moment in the fight.

 

Here in the 4th round (16:10) Terrell does complain to the ref about a thumb. Ali pushes Ernie off at the same time as he's dancing out of the corner:

(removed the clip, but can be seen on Youtube)

Probably a thumb got through in the process. But by this stage the commentators have already previously commentated on redness and swelling in Ernie's left eye. Damage they believe was done by jabs.

 

The doctor who treated Terrell described his injury as a "blow-out fracture of the bony structure under his eyeball". This, he said, had trapped the muscles under the eye, impairing its mobility, and would have caused double vision. He said it was likely caused by a "sharp impact directly on the eyeball".

Sounds more like the result of a punch than thumbing. The Associated Press observed that the swelling was visible in the third round, before the fighters wrestled on the ropes, and was most likely caused by a right uppercut. They also said that it was Terrell who was guilty of persistent fouling - hitting low and palming Ali's face with the inside of his glove - while Ali can't be seen to thumb him at any point.