Did anybody ever see anything peculiar in the Liston-Clay I fight

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Il Duce, Dec 3, 2010.


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  1. Dempsey1238

    Dempsey1238 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Oh active heavyweights ok.

    I seen the complete footage, intros, fight and end and interview with Ali at to the end of the broadcast.

    I was sure there was more than 1 heavyweight intro, as Louis and Marciano got intor also lol.
     
    Dempsey1238, Dec 4, 2010
    Dempsey1238, Dec 4, 2010
    #61
  2. My2Sense

    My2Sense Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Any of the four other contenders rated over him at the time.


    He'd also quit boxing for a year after the Williams fight to spend time in a mental institution. He was still in the process of working his way back up the rankings when Ali upset Liston.
     
    My2Sense, Dec 4, 2010
    My2Sense, Dec 4, 2010
    #62
  3. johnmaff36

    johnmaff36 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    This subject seems to be rehashed every other week and ive not seen one shred of evidence to support a 'fix' argument. People have mentioned the gambling angle in betting Clay but the fact of the matter is that bookmakers are not stupid and, to the best of my knowledge, no strange patterns in betting were ever discovered. If large amounts were put on Clay, you can take it to the bank that it would have come out somewhere along the line, and betting would have been suspended or at the very least his 8-1 woulda dropped significantly before the fight.

    Too many conspiracy theories for me.
     
    johnmaff36, Dec 5, 2010
    johnmaff36, Dec 5, 2010
    #63
  4. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    One of the fighters ranked above him going in?

    Regardless, Machen's first chance at a title shot would be late 65, by which time he had been eliminated and, for the fifth time, begun the worst run of his career.
     
    McGrain, Dec 5, 2010
    McGrain, Dec 5, 2010
    #64
  5. My dinner with Conteh

    My dinner with Conteh Tending Bepi Ros' grave again Full Member

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    Well, if Liston won the Machen fight was a possiblity, he was 4th ranked contender and the 'went the distance' angle gave him some kudos at the time (although the fight wasn't that close in reality, not for me anyway). I think if Sonny won that fight may have been made, that's supposing a Clay rematch wasn't signed. If Clay won then Jones deserved a rematch, based on their close-un in 1963 and his no: 2 ranking- but Liston II was signed instead. Fair enough.
     
    My dinner with Conteh, Dec 5, 2010
    My dinner with Conteh, Dec 5, 2010
    #65
  6. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    There's nothing at all wrong with that post, and there would have been nothing at all wrong with Liston's fighting Machen after Ali. Having said that, it is not the fight that Liston was talking about going into Ali I, nor was Machen amongst the men Liston's people listed as acceptable for Ali to meet in an eliminator to earn the shot.

    I don't think he was really as much a part of the picture as is being made out by Il Duce generally, like I said, the main reason he was there was the same as Marshall's, to make Liston seem beatable against a light hitter.

    But to be honest, this doesn't matter. Liston didn't win, and as you say, that removes any "special privileges" that Machen has, and more importantly, he begins losing and losing and losing before a title shot becomes an actual possibility.
     
    McGrain, Dec 5, 2010
    McGrain, Dec 5, 2010
    #66
  7. My dinner with Conteh

    My dinner with Conteh Tending Bepi Ros' grave again Full Member

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    Yeah, I agree. I think the Machen fight 'could' have become hot if Liston bombed out Clay, then revision of the Liston-Machen fight would see people viewing it closer than it actually was, at least from a marketing perspective. But if the Miami contest was competitive (assuming a Liston victory) then a rematch would be pencilled in before Eddie's shot. By the time this happend Eddie's becoming merely a footnote on the current scene.
     
    My dinner with Conteh, Dec 5, 2010
    My dinner with Conteh, Dec 5, 2010
    #67
  8. Il Duce

    Il Duce Boxing Addict Full Member

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    johnmaff36,

    It wasn't about the 8-1 odds and betting on the fight where the money was to be made.
    It was on the closed circuit money.
    The corporation money (legit money).
    Anybody dropping big bucks on Cassius Clay in one of the Las Vegas bookmakers
    would be considered either 'absolutely nuts', or bring attention to a fix.
    There were no 'big money' bets placed on Clay at Las Vegas.

    Just for a bit of information, the largest bet placed on the Patterson-Liston I fight in 1962,
    was $25,000 by a gambling cartel. Liston was a 3-2 favorite.
    The Patterson-Liston I fight drew in more bets than Liston-Clay I.

    Where the money was to be made, and guaranteed, and legal, was with
    TNT, (Nate Halpern; president of Television Network Theatre), utilizing
    closed circuit broadcasts in theatres.
    It was a whole new ball game now.

    Nate Halpern (buyer of the closed circuit rights) from ICP had the promotional rights
    to the next fight.
     
    Il Duce, Dec 5, 2010
    Il Duce, Dec 5, 2010
    #68
  9. Il Duce

    Il Duce Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Pitty-Pat-Jab,

    The odds for the Liston-Clay fight were 8-1.
    No heavy bets were placed for either fighter in Las Vegas.
    Also, no large amounts of small bets (ie; $5000) were wagered either.

    If any large bet (ie; $25,000) was placed, the odds would have dropped,
    probably to 5-1.
    Also, if the 'so-called' Bent-Nose money came in, it wasn't wagered in Las Vegas.

    As for Liston and his handlers, even if they bet against Sonny, with lets say
    $100,000, the odds would have dropped to possibly 3-1.

    No, the smart bet was made before the bout, when Inter-Continental Promotions
    bought the rights for Cassius Clay's next bout for $50,000, and including
    other promotional rights for future bouts.
     
    Il Duce, Dec 5, 2010
    Il Duce, Dec 5, 2010
    #69
  10. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Where are you getting all this information on the size of bets that were laid on Vegas? The odds on Ali approaching fight night DID drop. Your argument that they "any large bet" would reduce the odds further is ridiculous. It all depends on the money versus. If 150k comes in on Liston and 25k comes in on Ali, the odds will not swing violently in Ali's favour.

    What is your source for this information? The betting patterns for the day before the fight have been notoriously difficult to pin down.
     
    McGrain, Dec 5, 2010
    McGrain, Dec 5, 2010
    #70
  11. Il Duce

    Il Duce Boxing Addict Full Member

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    What are you talking about,
    The 8-1 odds favoring Liston dropped to what.
    There wasn''t any large take in the sports-betting parlors regarding the
    Liston-Clay fight.
    They reported normal-type betting, with none of the so-called late money from the
    inside people.
     
    Il Duce, Dec 5, 2010
    Il Duce, Dec 5, 2010
    #71
  12. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Expert betting from inside people WOULD look like "normal betting".

    What is your source for all this detailed information on the betting patterns?
     
    McGrain, Dec 5, 2010
    McGrain, Dec 5, 2010
    #72
  13. Il Duce

    Il Duce Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Source,
    Check out the professional sports odds-makers in Las Vegas from 1964.
    Mort Olshan (The Gold Sheet)
    Jimmy 'The Greek' Snyder

    The odds were 8-1 to start, and were 7-1 at some betting parlors.
    None of the 'so-called smart money' came in.

    For instance, Sonny Liston was a 7 1/2 -5 favorite over Floyd Patterson.
    When a large bet did come in late ($25,000) for Liston by a gambling cartel,
    it only changed the odds to 8-5 Liston.
    Jimmy The Greek and Mort Olshan marked it at 9-5 (Final Odds).
    Some betting parlors did have it at 2-1 Liston.
     
    Il Duce, Dec 5, 2010
    Il Duce, Dec 5, 2010
    #73
  14. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    What?

    You seem to be listing bookies? You were in these bookies on the day of the fight? They told you that there was no money being laid on Ali and that the odds were static?

    Where do you SEE the information about the odds you are repeating on the forum? Is it something I can see?
     
    McGrain, Dec 5, 2010
    McGrain, Dec 5, 2010
    #74
  15. red cobra

    red cobra Loyal Member Full Member

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    Yeah, as a matter of fact..there was a timetraveler talking on a modern-day cell phone walking in the back in row of seats..between round 5 and 6.
     
    red cobra, Dec 5, 2010
    red cobra, Dec 5, 2010
    #75
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