Did Carnera Kill Schaff with a jab?

I dont think the beating of Paret by Fullmer had any thing to do with Paret's death at the hands of Griffith.

Sure the beating did Paret no favors, and perhaps Paret would have done BETTER in the fight. But the ref was slow on the stoppage.

You dont let a guy land 30 unanswer shots on the ropes and THAN stop it.

 

Fullmer in Heller's, "In This Corner" is quoted as saying he feels responsible for Paret's death.

 

The back of Paret's head seemed to hit the ring ropes pretty badly during the final knockdown against Fullmer.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLsoepr-ybE[/ame]

 

Personaly I will never watch any of these films.

It is not something I have any interest in seeing.

 

My god what was Paret thinking taking on Fullmer. Fullmer was the ultimate welterweight destroyer(Basillio 2x, Paret, Robinson). Fullmer was wayy too strong for welterweights. Anyone else think if Fullmer made 147lb or even 154lb, his power would have improved and he would have been a absolute beast at those weights.

 

May I safely assume you likewise dismiss the notion of Max Baer having anything to do with Schaaf's death?

It was widely reported that Benny underwent a profound personality change after that beating, that there were definite signs in retrospect that he sustained substantial neurological damage as a result.

For his part, Gene said he never hit anybody as hard as he did Paret, and the videotape makes it obvious how severely Benny was repeatedly clobbered. (It doesn't help that Paret willingly would take two punches to land one.)

Whether or not there is any truth to the allegation that Gene Fullmer's fists played a key role in that fatality, what evidence there is that there was such a connection is far stronger than that from Schaaf-Maxie II for Carnera-Schaaf. Gene himself seems convinced that there was a link, and it may be no coincidence that Paret was his final win. (He did not compete again until after that tragedy, then finished up by going winless in the trilogy with Tiger, a formidable enough opponent without the added burden of a troubled subconsciousness.)

 

How does Emile Griffith do against Fullmer if he bumps up and fights him in 1960?

 

Fullmer would have had to cut off an arm or a leg to make 147. He often had trouble making 160, and usually came in at around 165 lbs to his fights. In his younger days he may have been a great junior middleweight though. Fullmer was just too strong for most welterweights to handle, and Paret relied on his physical strength a lot to win his fights. Both were the rough, mauling type who fought in the clinches. Fullmer of course also had a plan B that he would use against strong, aggressive opponents such as Tiger and Basilio, against whom he backed up and boxed from a distance most of the time.

 

Gene's aggression would have taken him to a clear decision win, probably a lopsided one. Griff split a pair with Moyer, and nailed down a decision win over Florentino Fernandez that year, Florentino's last defeat prior to challenging for Gene's middleweight throne. He also opened his rivalry with Luis Rodriguz.

Emile had a far different style to Paret, one well suited for survival, but he wasn't yet ready in 1960 to beat a seasoned veteran like that. Griff would have played the cutie with Gene, not the way to beat a man who could use that style to win himself, and understood it well.

Emile was criticized for his lack of aggression long before the Paret tragedy, not the least by Clancy during his first two bouts with Benny. (Don't forget that Gil had to ignite him with that slap in Griff's inaugural title shot.)

 

No argument about who killed Frankie Campbell though.

 

That's an unusual position to take for a boxing historian, but fair enough.

 

Perhaps janitor feels such an interest to be morbid and ghoulish ?
I felt the same was about a photo shown on here of Carlos Monzon's body immediately after his fatal car accident.

 

I think the "Max Baer killed Schaaf" thing is purely a myth.

15 rounds with Carnera coming in with influenza-aggravated brain inflammation is probably what killed him.
The doctor who investigated it said the illness made him less effective at avoiding blows and his brain was more vulnerable to injury.

Carnera did punch him for 15 rounds though, and Carnera was a pretty heavy puncher despite what his detractors might tell you.

 

I have no interest in seeing dead bodies either.

But to me, KOs where fighters end up dead or seriously injured as a result look pretty much like other KOs and TKOs, and the context is exactly the same.
The consequences were different, I respect that. But it's just part of the sport.

I respect janitor's position though. I just say it's probably unusual among boxing historians like us, with our enthusiasm in seeing any historical footage.

If good footage of Bob Fitzsimmons killing his opponent turned up, or film of Luther McCarty v. Arthur Pelkey, it would be remarkable that janitor wouldn't be among those commenting on the rare footage. Considering his deep interest in the eras.

 

I love the Health and Safety aspect of those old fights, he's unconscious so lets just grab him under the armpits and drag him back to the corner