Did Cus cheat Liston out of a higher all-time ranking?

No discussion on that.

Cus was deadly afraid of Liston crossing paths with Patterson, and avoided him like the plague (with good reason)

Patterson had to dump Cus to be able to fight Liston .... and we all saw what happened.

Good old Cus was spot on.

 

I am not sure how much getting the title earlier helps him.

He did meet most of the top contenders of the era, and keeping the title out of his hands might well have kept him focused.

 

There were other people besides Cus who didn’t want Liston close to the title. That pressure is one reason Patterson was so discombobulated, IMO.

 

If he did only barely. Liston established himself as the number 1 contender over Folley and Machen by September 1960. Patterson fought Liston about 2 years later and both men fought 2 fights in between. Of Pattersons 2 title defenses in this period the first was the trilogy with Johansson which was a perfectley reasonable alternative to Liston. The other was McNeeley which probably wasn't though McNeeley was undefeated.

So the delay amounts to 1 fight. Not by any means an unusual amount of foot dragging. I think more words about stopping Liston from getting the title were exchanged than time wasted that Liston could have used to have some sort of reign.

 

Perhaps in the historical sense that he may have managed a longer reign & more defenses.

That Patterson is some man. He was mentally fragile but rose above it in some extraordinarily challenging circumstances, both physically (fighting Johansson & Liston) & psychologically (choosing to face Liston the second, & perhaps even the first time).

Not what you think of as the archetype of courage & strength, but someone who acquitted themselves warts & all, in spite of their apprehension & shortcomings.

 

Two years is still a reasonable delay and was Liston’s # 1 ranking perhaps unreasonably delayed in itself also?

It can be somewhat telling that a contender has to literally clean out out a division before getting a shot.

Liston did that deep clean and still had to wait another two years for his shot.

The few fighters that Liston, as a contender, didn’t get to didn’t want to know about him anyway.

Liston was apparently required to jump through many more hoops than any other contender to gain his official eligibility (or gain a shot at any rate - hello Pete Rademacher) - an eligibility that was far more outstanding than anyone else Patterson had defended against to date.

 

Pete Rademacher jokes aside HW title shots in the 50s and early 60s were probably harder to obtain than in any other era. That might be how we ended up with alphabet belts. It certainly explains why people in the 1960s might have been receptive to them.

There have never been more impressive HW runs that have not produced accolades of any kind. Rex Layne, Clarence Henry, Bob Baker, Bob Satterfield, Robert Cleroux, Harry Matthews etc. The aformentioned Machen and Folley who were Listons main competition in 1960 only got title shots when the alphabet era kicked off in 1965 and 1967 respectively. You had to either move mountains to get a title shot and/or get lucky to get a title shot in this era. If we made a ranking of top HWs to never fight for any sort of world title it would be dominated by this era.

Liston was very misunderstood and he was unfairly maligned as something he was not. But just looking at it from a boxing perspective here.

 

This.

Due to the rematch clause with Ingo, the earliest Liston was getting his shot was in late 1961, instead of McNeely. In that case Liston would have rematched Patterson in 1962 and defended in 1963 before the defence against Ali/Clay.

I think the main history changer could have been if Ali got his shot already in 1963. He would have been the nr 1 contender in early '63 with Patterson out of the way.

 

I respect the hell out of Patterson. He knew that he was going to get slaughtered but he showed up anyways (twice). Very courageous.

 

I would say the main difference is that Liston had fewer title defenses (1), but the number of wins over top guys of the era doesn’t really change.

If Liston wins the title earlier, who knows, maybe complacency (and excessive drinking) come into play earlier.

 

What Floyd gained in a one-sided blowout to Liston the first time is more than most thoroughly protected champions will ever have. And the fact that he got in the ring with him again to duplicate the result and wanted a third try? I don't think you can gain more respect/honour/whatever you want to call it from those kinds of losses. Patterson wasn't just a great "guy." He was a great man. He really was. And Liston may've been a great heavyweight, but he was a big poopy pants too. Let's all be adults about this and not forget that.


...What the hell was this thread about, again?

 

So if Liston gets the title one fight earlier and defends against Ali instead of Patterson in July 1963... Could we have a different outcome? Looking at the Cooper fight just a month or two earlier that certainly seems like a possibility, even though I think it's fair to say that Ali would be better prepared for Liston. But seven months when you're 21 makes a difference in your development.

And if he beats Ali/Clay in 1963, that would certainly enhance his legacy. So, yes, that one fight could have made a lot of difference in hindsight.

 

Maybe

What hurt him more was Ali. Without Ali, Listons beats everyone in 64, 65,66 and 67.

Frazier maybe beats him in 68. My guess is Futch would avoid even an aging b Liston and wait for a younger guy like Ellis to put point the aging Sonny first.

Ali cost Liston 8-10 title defences.

 

You might be right.

If Liston beat Ali somehow or Ali didn't exist, he steamrolls the remaining contenders: Chuvalo, Ellis, Mathis, Terrel, Quarry, Cooper, Bonavena, etc. I wouldn't want to bet 1 cent against Liston if he's motivated and in shape with those names lined up. It would make for one hell of a resume.

Disagree on Frazier beating him in 68. I think a focused Liston beats him too, but the odds start to tilt in Frazier's favor around 70 when he was putting on the finishing touches of his style/skill.

Funny how shuffling 1-2 fights around could completely alter history.