Did Cus cheat Liston out of a higher all-time ranking?

Thanks for the answer but procuring the date of the fight is obviously simple and no drama.

On the other hand, ascertaining the most recent ranking of both Liston and Johansson prior to the Machen vs Johannson fight is not so simple - and yet to be confirmed.

I assume you sourced from The Ring Magazine’s Annual Ratings for 1957 dated Feb 1958 - yeah, I was already up to speed with that.

For the Year 1958, as at Feb 1959, The Ring had Liston rated at # 9, so that’s possibly the rating
he was at by Sep 1958 but of course it’s not 100%. For the same 1958 Annual ratings, Ingemar was listed at # 1.

So, was Johansson’s jump from #10 to # 1 essentially by virtue of his single victory over Machen - Machen who, despite being # 1 himself until the Ingo fight, couldn’t secure a fight with with Floyd?

# 2 Folley was shut out likewise and later lost to Cooper in Oct 1958.

So, Cus reasons Floyd out of fighting his # 1 and # 2 because they drew in their fight - when he really should’ve committed Floyd to fighting his # 1 contender or his # 2 contender at worst.

Was the Machen vs Johansson fight somehow deemed to be an eliminator? If so, how did Ingo wrangle that opportunity based on his resume to date?

He was supposed to only be a tune up, stay busy fight for Machen who had been forced into a ridiculous holding pattern by team Cus/Floyd.

Suffice to say, if Machen got his due opportunity when he should have, then Ingo doesn’t come into the picture as at that time, if ever.

I’ve also read that Johansson was contractually obligated to rematch Machen - but that obligation was ignored by both Team
Ingo and Cus. I just found this online: -

https://casetext.com/case/machen-v-johansson

Now also, I found this quote elsewhere online but, to be clear, I’d have to verify its exact source and authenticity since it was it was only prefaced by “Floyd Patterson said” : -

“Cus was simply not letting me fight the top contenders. I had to finally let him go, which hurt me, but a champion should face the best, or not be champion. Yes, I lost to Sonny LIston, but I faced him. I should have faced Eddie Machen and Zora Folley but Cus would not make the fights.”

I like Floyd but it actually illustrates the passes he seems to get when I read anyone actually being given credit and affording him great courage for finally facing Liston - his outstanding # 1 contender no less - who literally had to clean out the division to get to Floyd.

A path somewhat similar to that of Jack Johnson who had to beat all and sundry and still be made to wait before finally breaking through the colour line and getting his shot.

Meanwhile and before Liston’s eligibility, other challengers were granted the opportunity for doing a whole lot less than Sonny was required to do - and Machen and Folley for that matter.

Liston could not have been turned away any longer than he was without Floyd’s image suffering even more damage to his reputation and irreparable damage at that.

 

Thanks Solomon. I only saw your post after I submitted my own. Great info as always.

 

Again Matt, it was no drama and it was a trivial thing to focus on. Anyway, it didn’t stop Solomon up and he provided the exact info requested, right on the button. So all good.

 

This Pugguy is such a noob. lmaoz

 

Matt, I think I made it clear in the first instance that I exactly understood what you were trying to say and gave you my opinion of it - of course, in the frame of this particular enquiry, also.

Ultimately, I did say “All good”.

I’ve been here a couple of years. As far as information requests go, I’ve both received and provided same easily. No glitches or mention of any such precluding, personal caveats, especially same being overstated as it now.

I didn’t say to google boxrec anyway, you can type the name of the fight followed by “date”..and, voila, you’ve got that info.

On another day, (perhaps when feeling extraordinarily generous ), I might even have put the month and year - again, it’s not a big deal.

Also, not all, but some people actually have an idea of the month/year, particularly when it relates to the subject currently being chewed over.

What more can I can say aside from, and again, all good. We can move on.

 

‘Tis true. Still very much wet behind the ears, especially when I’m...ah, never mind..

 

He's gonna reply to that. Might even break up the quote.

 

This is an interesting question. How would that have turned out if Ali wasn't exiled for example. Frazier was the nr 1 contender in 1967, but Durham, who was the manager at this time, thought it was too early for Frazier. So what would be the plan if Ali's people came calling?

Likewise, if Liston gets the title one fight earlier and wants to make a fight with Ali already in 1963? It's not easy to turn down a title shot and you can never be sure when you get the opportunity again.

 

Light heartedly, I’ve always felt that if a fight was secured against Frazier in the late 60s, Liston and his team might’ve been wise to secretly slip some Valium into what ever beverage Frazier had prior to fight time.

The fight then might’ve perhaps looked a bit like Liston’s match vs George “Scrap Iron” Johnson (with one eye shut, the other squinting?), though, I don’t know that even Joe could absorb the same shellacking for as long as Johnson did.

You could see that old Sonny was literally becoming exhausted from beating on Scraps.

I think Liston was quite relieved when the ref mercifully stopped the fight - relieved for himself that is. By late 60s, Sonny was only good for 9 rounds at every best, already clearly beginning to tire several rounds beforehand.

My goodness, that Scrap Iron was possessed of quite the chin and overall durability.

I think it was the Frazier fight that Johnson put on a side net with his purse monies (bet being to last the distance - which Scraps did).

The winnings allowed Scraps to put a down payment on the house that he and wife lived in thereafter (eventually fully paid off) until his passing. Nice story that is.

 

Thanks for sharing, great way to motivate oneself in Johnson’s case. Helluva gamble though even without knowing yet how great Frazier would become.

Some may disagree but as I said, I favour Frazier by 1968. I don’t think Liston has the energy to conclude any damage he dishes out at that point. Was Frazier made for him stylistically? Yes. But the personal drive of the two men at this stage was galaxies apart, & I think would remain so even if Liston were fighting to defend his belt. Frazier stops him mid to late.

 

Alis team certainly didn’t want him facing Chuvalo whilst on his march toward Liston.

After the Cooper fight in 1963, it would’ve been very understandable to think that Ali wasn’t quite ready for Sonny.

But then Ali had more growth and maturing in him at a relatively fast rate - and stylistically, Cooper was a different kettle of fish who Ali didn’t take seriously enough the first time around either.

Of course Ali beat Cooper in 66 also, but the dynamic wasn’t entirely dissimilar to their fight 3 years earlier - minus the KD of course.