Did Cus cheat Liston out of a higher all-time ranking?

No worries. Sharing is caring. Lol.

Yeah, while still very technically sound, Liston had notably slowed and didn’t have the same snap to his prime punch though still possessed of his raw, natural power.

While advancing age was obviously catching up, Liston’s lifestyle external to the ring was also taking its toll.

In all possibility, before Joe began to truly smoke, Sonny might’ve stunned/hurt Frazier early and put the pedal to the metal to finish it - thus, Liston wasn’t worth the risk.

But more likely Sonny can’t catch Joe so cleanly or sufficiently clean, and after say, 4-5-6 rounds, Liston would begin to notably fatigue - not a good thing to be tiring fast with a raging Frazier in your grill. Quite frightening actually.

Interesting that an older, past prime Machen actually shook Joe all the way down to his heels - it was as close to a KD as could be without yielding an actual KD.

 

Well, when even the POTUS is calling you out to fight Liston it is not like you have many options left...

Can somebody confirm if this is true?:

"On December 4, 1961, Sonny knocked out Germany’s Albert Westphal in 1:58 of the first round in Philadelphia’s Convention Hall as part of a closed circuit doubleheader with the Floyd Patterson-Tom McNeeley title bout in Toronto. President John F. Kennedy, watching both bouts, remarked that “it would have been a better fight if Liston had fought Patterson.” Floyd took that as a cue to manager Cus D’Amato’s objections to Sonny as a titular opponent. Patterson defended against Liston in Comiskey Park, Chicago, on September 25, 1962, and the rest is history."

The Most Feared Fighter in Boxing History: Charles 'Sonny' Liston remembered - The Ring (ringtv.com)

 

Was two more immediate fights fair and just tho? How often in history has the world champ fought the same guy three fights in a row? Is this the only time in heavyweight history the same pair have fought three times in a row for the title? Maybe at any weight?

I can understand given the competitiveness of the second fight they went again but it's rarer than hens teeth. Patterson was also a pretty big fave in the third fight after the way the second ended. Ingo could easily have been made to sit aside for a while and fight his way back. Patterson could have had an easy defense before fighting someone harder, potentially Liston.

There was a year between the first and second fight and 9 months until the third. As a matter of fact Pattersons whole schedule was slow. He fought Jackson 8 months after winning the title, had what was virtually an expected exhibition against Rademacher a month later, took another year to fight Harris, 9 months to London then over a year until Ingo, then another year to Ingo 2 then 9 months to Ingo 3. That's pretty slow going. Once he got the Liston matches out of the way Ali set a much better pace. Marciano immediately prior to Patterson also set a much better pace. Perhaps the bigger criticism is the lack of urgency by Patterson and his team in defending. I don't think i am missing any big injury scheme.

 

I must be misunderstanding you because i thought the whole series took 21 months? There was a year between fight 1 and 2 then another 9 months between 2 and 3. The whole series would be three fights.

 

Ok how do you view my potential criticisms of Pattersons lacklustre pace? Obviously it was fast enough to keep from being stripped but it's pretty slack really comparative to his peers both prior and after. I think this might be the bigger problem.

 

You’re still snagged on this?

The amount of times we’ve exchanged on this are on you. You initiated, commented re the date, I duly replied and no, you weren’t quoted at length nor replied to inappropriately.

Could’ve been squared and done, right there but here we are, still.

You could’ve ignored my request for the info in the first instance if it didn’t fit your subjective caveat - info that you didn’t actually provide anyway.

You can bet all you like - don’t forget, I did actually receive the information I requested - just as I have received and imparted information many times before without a glitch or issue with the framing of my requests.

What’s up with moving on? Nothing, of course.

I’ve duly replied and then civilly tried to extricate myself from further discussion of what was and still is a pointless bone of contention. I think I’ve also said all good a couple of times.

 

Clay still beats Liston in 1963. Very possible he beats Sonny in '62. Too much speed.

 

The stench from the Lewiston fight made Liston a pariah. He wasn't a gate attraction anymore. The disgusted public shunned him. He was scrubbed from the rankings. Nobody stood to gain by fighting him or promoting him.

 

Very interesting. I didn't know that Machen had a rematch clause. Interesting that Machen's team considered Johansson dangerous enough to insist on one. The knockout was a complete shocker.

P.S. I don't think Folley would have been a problem for Patterson at any point in Floyd's career.

 

Personally i can't see much of a case for Clay beating Liston in 62. Liston's one fight in 62 was his first demolition of Patterson and he was in brutal shape and form. He'd waited a long time for this. Listons sole fight in 63 was the Patterson rematch so we know he was on fire and still motivated for that one too. Clay tho was coming on hard. I think it's fair to say Liston saw Clay as a bit of an easy win in that first encounter so you'd think it would have been the same even if a year earlier.