Did Darcy Beat Up Fulton In Sparring?

In the same discussion Dempsey said that they were trying to make a fight between he and Darcy and nothing could be further from the truth.

 

How can you possibly know this if you were not there?

 

The onus isn't on me to prove a negative. The onus is on you to prove that's true. Just like its on you to show me a legitimate contemporary first hand account that Darcy knocked out or even showed up Fred Fulton in a sparring session in front of a room full of reporters, none of whom wrote about (which itself defies all logic and understanding of the exact nature of reporters).

The best thing you can say so far is that you have the word of a few people, told much later after the fact, that may or may not have even been present at the "event" who said it happened. That's not a first hand source.

Please show me a single verifiable report from when Darcy was alive that anyone was trying to match him with Jack Dempsey, who was almost totally unknown at the time, was right around the corner from getting knocked out by Jim Flynn, and had only recently refused significant offer to fight Jack Dillon because he was figured to be too tough. Jack Dempsey wasn't even on anyones radar at that point. Darcy as being talked of in bouts with MARQUEE fighters or at least fighters who had some claim to fame i.e. Al McCoy (one of the lesser names, and figured to draw a smaller gate) who had the Worlds Championship, Mike Gibbons who was figured to be the best fighter in the world, Jack Dillon who as considered a phenom for being able to beat men much bigger than him, Jeff Smith who many figured had unfinished business with Darcy, George Chip, a previous champion who had a contracted rematch with Darcy that Darcy ran out on. Carpentier, Willard, and so on and so forth. They weren't looking to match Darcy with nobodys from nowhere and why would they? Dempsey saying it happened doesn't make it so. It was pure self serving nonsensical hogwash and the only reason anyone wouldn't question it when he said it years later was because by then he had made his name and forged his legacy. But during the time in which he as speaking he was a relative unknown. He wasn't even considered a contender. He certainly hadn't done anything to distinguish himself much less to be mentioned as being matched with a guy who at that time was briefly the biggest news story in boxing. Its ludicrous. Its like saying they were trying to match Floyd Mayweather with Pacqiauo, DLH, Mosley, Margarito, Cotto, and Jesse Feliciano... WHO?? Its ridiculous. Its no different than when he claimed they couldn't get a promoter to match him with Wills (self serving lie), or when he said no promoter would match him and Greb because Greb was too small (self serving lie). Why people take everything Dempsey said as gospel is beyond me. The guy proved throughout his life and career he was more than willing to talk out of both sides of his mouth if it helped his image.

 

Steve- After returning to Australia sometime during the 1920s, Mick King appears to have been institutionalized until dying in 1949.. Except for some mention about a fund being set up for some of King's personal needs, it is tough finding coverage about him after 1920 in the Australian newspapers. But Mick Hawkins, a trainer of Les Darcy's in Australia and the U.S., had lavish praise for his late employer for many years afterwards.

- Chuck Johnston

 

I find it laughable that Jack Dempsey would be considered a viable opponent for Les Darcy during the latter's lifetime. Dempsey was a virtual unknown until he was being managed by Jack Kearns. When did Kearns begin to manage Dempsey? During the early part of 1917, Dempsey fought Fireman Jim Flynn while being managed by A. J. Auerbach and had his first bouts in the San Francisco Bay Area while being managed by Fred Winsor. It appears that Dempsey didn't have his first known bout with Kearns as his manager until he fought Willie Meehan in Emeryville, California on July 25, 1917, a full two months after Darcy's untimely death.

- Chuck Johnston

 

I havent got time to look into things at the moment.

But didnt Dempsey lay a claim (admittedly a tenuos one) to the light heavyweight championship around about this time?

 

Outside of Salt Lake City newspapers, the only mentions of Jack Dempsey you can find in early 1917 are him being matched first with Carl Morris for Feb 6, but later he was matched with Jim Flynn instead. Nobody knew who Dempsey was.

 

No, the man promoting Dempsey's fight with Terry Keller promoted it as a light heavyweight championship. A promoter can promote any bout any way he wants to that doesn't make it so. Dempsey never claimed the light heavyweight championship and Terry Keller sure as hell didn't either. Both of those guys would have found it impossible to hold up that claim under scrutiny. Nobody outside of that promoters imagination reckoned that bout as being for a championship (few outside of Utah even paid notice to the bout itself or even heard about it).

 

i didnt meant to imply that he was a legitimate Light heavyweight champion or that his title meant anything. But the point was, his promoter laid claim to him being the best light heavy in the world. Why wouldnt he try to see if he could fight another top light heavyweight. Darcy was a legitimate light heavyweight/middlewight. FOr arguments sake, if Darcy had chosen to fight (and beat) Darcy or some of the other otehr decent light heavys going around then all of a sudden that promoters claim looks an awful lot stronger.

Everyone agrees that Dempsey was not well known.

How does any of this mean that his handlers could not have enquired about a fight with Darcy. It is not a fight everyone wanted, that is agreed. But then again, around about this time, Mike Gibbons fought a fight in Canada against Ray Campbell. I wonder what we would say if Ray Campbell's handlers had been in Goshan trying to land a fight with Darcy. Or imagine if his fight with Gibbons had fallen over and he had suggested that his handlers were in Canada trying to arrange a fight with Gibbons. I doubt he would be believed.

 

Would any promoter be willing to offer Les Darcy a big enough purse to fight a then-virtual unknown like Jack Dempsey, a heavyweight to boot? Keep in mind that Darcy was only a few days from having a scheduled bout with Jack Dillon for a reported $30,000. purse at Madison Square Garden before the Governor of New York, Charles Whitman, banned Darcy from boxing in the state. In the meantime, Darcy had spurned a $15,000. purse offer to fight Mike Gibbons. Even if Darcy was willing to fight a lesser known fighter for a relatively small purse in order to get his feet wet in North America, it is probable that his opponent would be close to his size rather than a much bigger fighter like Dempsey. By the way, had Darcy ever read about or heard of Dempsey before his premature demise? There is a very good chance that he had not.

- Chuck Johnston

 

Naturally, best Dempsey could have got while Les was alive was a paid spot as a sparring partner where he would have been very useful as practice against a much taller man but a fight just not a viable thing. The only occasion I know of Dempsey ever discussing a fight was with D'Arcy Niland as a kind of hindsight when Dempsey said he was a great fighter but too small to fight a heavyweight of his calibre and I would be too big for him or any other middleweight.

 

I don't hold much store in the so called Gibbons deal and if he was to make twice as much to fight Dillon why in hell would he want Gibbons for half price under conditions all set up for Gibbons to have every possible advantage ?... remember Darcy sacked O'Sullivan over this thing.

 

I was not knocking Darcy for accepting the $30,000. purse offer to fight Jack Dillon and reportedly spurning the $15,000. purse offer to fight Mike Gibbons. Instead, I was citing the reported purse offers in an attempt to show why it was unlikely that a promoter was going to offer a large enough purse to Darcy to fight a then-virtual unknown fighter like Jack Dempsey. Believe me, purses of $15,000. and $30,000. were very substantial for the time, especially for non-heavyweights before the 1920s.

- Chuck Johnston

 

Chuck, as i pointed out above, lesser known fighters do get shots at good fighters, be it tune ups, keep busy fights or whatever. We are not talking about advanced negotiations or anything like that. This is something as simple as a "handler" being around the new york fight scene and making an inquiry about using Dempsey. Something as simple as. You want a tune up fight? Why not use my mate, Jack. Good bloke but he needs the money he will take the fight on the cheap. May even lie down like he did against Jim Flynn for not much coin (okay shouldnt have opened up that can of worms )

Answer: no sorry mate not interested. Still, why dont you come down to the gym for the big Darcy fulton fight. Theres a few guys you might match dempsey with down there. Should be a good round too. There going all in, i heard fulton wants to show him up bit. That guys going places. You want to do something with Dempsey, you come back when he KOs Fred Fulton. Do that and i will make him world champion!

The whole point is that the only things we know about this is:
Jack Dempsey said it happened.
We cannot prove it wrong.
If it did happen, it might not make sense, but it certainly wouldnt be the strangest thing that happened.