Did Dempsey duck Wills?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Seamus, Jan 1, 2008.


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  1. burt bienstock

    burt bienstock Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    A thought on the subject that bigness means betterness via Dempsey, Louis, Tyson
    against today's massive slower men...
    Why were these men able to beat much heavier men ?
    Joe Walcott, beat Joe Choynsk ?i
    Bob Fitz destroyed much heavier men ?
    Jack Dillon, was called Jack the Giant Killer because he Kod heavyweights 25 pounds? heavier than he ?
    Sam Langford, constantly flattened lhs and heavyweights ?
    Harry Greb, through speed, toughness and tenacity beat lhs and heavyweights time
    after time though outweighed from 15-35 pounds ?
    Joe Louis, at 200 pounds OBLITERATED 250 pound heavyweights ?
    Charley Burley- as a MW beat top lightheavyweights frequently ?
    So, why couldn't a Jack Dempsey and Joe Louis in their primes spot today's top heavyweights who were much slower and less athletic than they...? After all they flattened much bigger men before in their primes ?
    So my question remains why others before Dempsey, Louis and a 215 Mike Tyson, not be able to do what many others before them did ???
    What nature gives in bulk in a fighter, it takes away in speed and dexterity...
     
    burt bienstock, Jul 11, 2013
    burt bienstock, Jul 11, 2013
    #46
  2. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    Nice.
     
    Seamus, Jul 11, 2013
    Seamus, Jul 11, 2013
    #47
  3. SP_Mauler

    SP_Mauler Boxing Addict Full Member

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    So you say Dempsey ducked Wills because you "think" he was "complicit"... This is how desperate you are
     
    SP_Mauler, Jul 11, 2013
    SP_Mauler, Jul 11, 2013
    #48
  4. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    It's simple logic. Now see if you can follow it.

    Dempsey did not fight Wills. This we know. The claim most often made to defend this fact is that the machinations of Tex Rickard (who laughably was so noble as to be concerned about possible racial tensions) prevented the match. However, Dempsey & Co. was a three headed monster... and if we are to believe that Dempsey was a unique and stellar talent that could not be replaced by the other two, then we must also believe that he had control in all decisions. That was his leverage in the situation. If he wasn't all that good, and was considered vulnerable goods by the rest of the trust, then he would truly be a pawn. So, you either must admit that Dempsey was complicit in the decision not to face Wills or he was simply not believed to be that good by Rickard and Kearns. Take your choice.

    Also, when you look at Rickard's statements regarding a possible black champion in the 1920's, his real objection seems to be the lack of money to be made by such a champion, not potential strife. I believe his quote was, "There's no money in a black heavyweight champion."
     
    Seamus, Jul 11, 2013
    Seamus, Jul 11, 2013
    #49
  5. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    Seamus, Jul 11, 2013
    Seamus, Jul 11, 2013
    #50
  6. SP_Mauler

    SP_Mauler Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Where does it highlight his duck,Dempsey signed to fight him and the contract fell through.

    Dempsey also told the commission he will fight if they are willing to promote the match, they never did.

    Rickard at one stage didn't want to offer Wills more then 10k,Wills declined. He then stated that Dempsey wanted too much money,500k, but he gave him near that value for opponents that created much less hype. Dempsey v Wills would have been the first million dollar gate.

    Also didn't Rickard have a contract with Wills,giving past contracts I would assume if Wills had of knocked out Firpo he would have been given the title,he failed to do something Jack Dempsey did in two.

    Again where is Dempsey to blame for this Seamus? Apparently he's the cog in the wheel..shameless
     
    SP_Mauler, Jul 11, 2013
    SP_Mauler, Jul 11, 2013
    #51
  7. burt bienstock

    burt bienstock Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    SP, The New York State Boxing Commission refused to sanction a match between a black heavyweight and a white heavyweight while Dempsey was champion because of the riots following the Jeffries and Johnson fight in 1910 in which many deaths occurred throughout the nation...This is a damn fact and you can't wish it away. So Tex Rickard even if he knew he would make a fortune on this fight happening in New York COULDN'T make this mixed fight happen. This is factual history whether today we like it or not.
    Was it fair to Harry Wills ? Hell NO. But Tex Rickard Dempsey's promoter
    could not overrule the NYS Boxing Commission...So into the breach
    stepped a Michigan promoter Floyd Fitzsimmons, who signed up Harry Wills and Jack Dempsey for a bout as photos from that time show. But he the promoter couldn't come up with the money and the bout was canceled..
    Of course today's cynical Dempsey naysayers could NOT DENY the
    photos of the signing, so to buttress their claim they say the signing
    of the fight was just a PLOY to fool the public...Reading old Ring and other boxing mags from the late 1920s through the 1930s, I have never read
    that this signing of the Dempsey/Wills fight for Floyd Fitzsimmons was never intended to occur...Fitzsimmons could NOT raise sufficient funds from wary money men who knew of the possible repeat of the riots and deaths
    in America following the Jeffries/Johnson fight in Reno...So to deny the signing between Wills and Dempsey by todays revisionists on ESB ,who live in a much different times today is not accurate...
    Furthermore as events later proved Harry Wills was flattened by the George Chuvalo of his time, the Basque Paolino Uzcudun, and soundly beaten by Jack Sharkey...And Dempsey would have surely, have also whipped the straight up Harry Wills...
    P.S. As I once posted before. In the 1940s, I as a young fellow was watching the fighters train at Stillmans Gym on 8th Ave, NYC, and who was standing maybe 5 feet or so away from me, but a tall grey haired gentleman who I later learned was Harry Wills...If I knew THEN what I KNOW now, I would have questioned Harry Wills, if I had the cujones...
     
    burt bienstock, Jul 11, 2013
    burt bienstock, Jul 11, 2013
    #52
  8. SP_Mauler

    SP_Mauler Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Plain and simple..it was Rickard..There should have been a cue of promoters for Dempsey vs Wills if not the fear of race riots
     
    SP_Mauler, Jul 11, 2013
    SP_Mauler, Jul 11, 2013
    #53
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