Did Dempsey or Tunney ever fight Black Heavyweights?

"Somebody did a good job of polishing him over the period between these fights."

It was Abe Attell who became a special trainer and worked on his jab.

 

Sharkey won a shutout decision over Carnera in 31. nearly kayoed carnera in round 4. i have film of the fight. Sharkey showed up flabby in carnera rematch. all his muscle definition was gone

 

The thing that is discouraging to me is people say Dempsey and Tunney were scared to fight Wills yet Wills got schooled at the time by Jack Sharkey.

If Wills could not beat Sharkey he was not going to beat Dempsey or Tunney.

 

Members of the" Detroit Purple Gang" where in attendance at Sharkey's training camp for the rematch.[Why train if you are going in the tank?]

 

True mcvey. Listen I think Tunney was an excellent boxer(although not a level above sharkey/schmeling), but I do think his heavyweight resume is extremley shallow and Its a shame we missed out on seeing a Tunney vs either Wills(pre 1925), Godfrey, sharkey, or schmeling.

Imagine if instead of Heeney...Tunney fought and beat Jack Sharkey in 1928. that alone ups his resume. say he keeps going. Then in early 1929 fought and beat George Godfrey, and then had one final title defense in 1930 at age 33 with a win over Max Schmeling. Then Retired.


Then his heavyweight title reign would look like this

W 10 Jack Dempsey

W 10 Jack Dempsey

W Jack Sharkey

W George Godfrey

W Max Schmeling


If that had happened, I could make a case tunney deserving of a top 5 heavyweight of all time spot. Hell if tunney had fought sharkey or godfrey instead of heeney, and won, I would say he is deserving of top 20 all time heavyweight.


Now I highly doubt Tunney would have swept all 3. I give tunney even money vs schmeling and sharkey, and godfrey would have been a huge risk we'd never seen tunney deal with before.

 

Yes and aliens landed at Roswell in 1947.

 

Burns originally wanted to defend the title against Sam McVea.

 

Yes. Just because there were a few hard cases in gaudy ties and Fedoras in the audience is no real proof the fight was fixed. Gangsters might be fans, you know.

Not only had Carnera improved since 1931, but Sharkey had clearly gone back pretty severely. He was beaten in his next two fights by Loughran and Levinsky and would never again win a fight against a top rated opponent.

As for being fat, Sharkey weighed 201 for Carnera. He weighed 205 for Schmeling in 1932.

 

Well its a fact that the boys were there, whether Sharkey put forth is best effort only he knew.
Big Boy Peterson
Chuck wiggins
Ace Clark
Bombo Chevalier
Young Stribling
Bud Gorman
George Godfrey
And Possibly Jack Sharkey you get my drift don't you?

 

You have the full 15 rounds? According to the NY Times, Sharkey weighed 202 for the 1931 bout, actually one pound more than for the 1933 fight.

Anyway this is an interesting report, so here is some excerpts. It is easy to purchase at the New York Times Archives. I do not have the computer knowledge to transfer it.

After describing the fight and the knockdown in the fourth, during which Carnera lost the count and got to his feet and then dropped back to one knee, which the writer points out he had the right to do under the rules of the time. Carnera got to his feet at nine.

New York Times (James P Dawson) October 13, 1931 Page 31.

"Carnera then rallied in a demonstration of agile boxing that was a vast surprise to onlookers."

"Contrary to being disgraced, Carnera was established as a really dangerous heavyweight who has only one handicap. He is a year or two ahead of his time."

That turned out to be a very prescient comment.

"But Sharkey instead of substantiating the suspicion that Carnera was just a ring freak, out of his element away from the circus or country fair, by his victory demonstrated that the big Venetian is a title element to be considered in the future."

"Carnera showed every requisite of a ring gladiator, save schooling. Under wicked left hooks which battered the left side of his face out of shape, he kept his poise. Greater than anything, the Italian showed that recommendation of the true fighting man, the spirit, the will, and the determination, the fearless courage, to go forward in the face of adversity.
"Carnera was agile, light as a dancer on his feet, despite his massive frame. He was unerringly accurate, to the consternation of Sharkey and the latter's adherents, in the use of the left jab, but he has not the sharpness that goes with power.
"Carnera's punching skill suffers accordingly, right now. Undoubtedly he will improve in this respect. Then he will be more dangerous, almost unbeatable."

Read that last line again-----"he will be more dangerous, almost unbeatable."

Dawson did not have the fight a shutout. He had Sharkey winning 10 to 5.

This is one of the premier boxing writers in the country at the time. He certainly didn't seem to be as unimpressed sitting at ringside as modern critics are.
I don't know who is right or who is wrong, but one thing I've noticed concerning Carnera. The gap between what the ringside press wrote about him and what modern critics write is wider than with any other fighter.

 

So after 61 fights Carnera still had to learn how to punch his weight.I dont buy it ,and I dont buy his long ko record and neither did a lot of very prominent journalists of the time. Sharkey was NOT a puncher ,neither was Gains ,both had Carnera down , Carnera kos Sharkey with an uppercut , he never duplicated this against a top fighter why was that?
If Carnera had one punch ko power why did we never see it?
Shouldnt we have seen it against Gains 68lbs the lighter man? Or Loughran , 85 lbs the lighter man whom Sharkey, a non puncher kod.Carnera has one of the most impressive ko records ,yet he is never mentioned when the alltime ko kings come up ,why is that?
Carnera won the title in 1933,that year the Ring magazine refused to award a fighter of the year Award,why was that?
Dawson the premier boxing writer of his time ? Over Grantland Rice, Hype Igoe,Nat Fleischer? Don't make me laugh.

 

Why? Tunney wouldnt fight Sharkey, in fact he chose to face Heeney over Sharkey who probably deserved the decision over Heeney. And the only way Dempsey was ever going to beat Sharkey in 1927 was by fouling his way to a win after Sharkey was easily handing Dempsey his ass.

I also dont believe Sharkey threw the Carnera bout. In the final round of the second fight he actually hurts Carnera and goes in for the kill before getting caught with a perfect uppercut and knocked out. Not really the demeanor of a guy who is laying down to go after a wounded opponent as vigorously as Sharkey did.

 

Nat Fleischer? He wasnt a very good writer or historian.

 

1. "Dawson the premier boxing writer of his time?"---I edited it to "one of the premier boxing writers of his time" as this is too tangential a point to get into. Dawson was the boxing editor of the New York Times from 1915 to 1953 and was widely respected. I don't think there is anything laughable about considering him the single premier boxing writer of his era. It is certainly a justifiable position, and I have heard him so described.

2. Sharkey only top man he ko'd with right uppercut--How many top men did Jersey Joe Walcott ko with a single left hook? I guess it depends on what you consider a top man. Of Carnera's ko victims, George Cook, Bud Gorman, Knute Hansen, Victorio Campolo, Ernie Schaaf, Jack Sharkey, Ray Impellitierre, and Walter Neusel rated in the Ring yearly ratings at one time or another. How many were ko'd with right uppercuts? Don't know, but I think the durable Bearcat Wright was.

3. I think Sharkey was going back and I also think he had always been somewhat chinny. Besides Dempsey and Louis and Carnera, he was also ko'd by Quintin Romero-Rojas and very lucky to avoid a ko defeat to Jim Maloney who had him down 6 times in the 8th and 9th rounds of a fight in 1925, only to lose that fight on a foul in the 9th.

4. Your arguments over who should knock out who aren't that persuasive. Loughran was knocked out by Sharkey and Hamas, but also survived both in rematches and survived every other fighter he fought, including Max Baer. Gains might have been better than both Carnera and Sharkey in 1932. How did Bert Whitehurst twice go the distance with Liston when Patterson twice couldn't make it out of the first round against Sonny? How did Hans Friedrich and Archie McBride go the distance with a Johansson who ko'd Eddie Machen and Patterson? How did a mediocre puncher like Joe Shugrue, with 16 ko's in 88 fights, manage to ko Benny Leonard and Owen Moran. Such things aren't logical? I don't think it proves the fights were fixed.

5. Carnera's high knockout percentage--came about the same way as the gaudy ko percentages of many modern fighters. He fought a great many third and fourth raters. His ko percentage was much lower against top competition.

 

He had the balls not to give Carnera "Fighter of the Year".
The Balls to Champion Harry Wills case.
The Balls to support Muhammad Ali when all other bodies were busy stripping him of his title .
I think Boxing owes Fleischer a huge debt.