Did Dempsey or Tunney ever fight Black Heavyweights?

Well thats very apt ,as Attell was in quite a few fixed fights , and even ,along with Arnold Rothstein ,fixed the World Series.

 

Im not disputing that Fleischer was a great promoter of the sport. In fact I almost ended my sentence with that fact. That doesnt change that he wasnt a great writer or a great historian. Fleischer was a guy who never let facts get in the way of a good story and as editor of the Ring followed that policy with his writers and as such a great many FALSE stories and legends have been spread throughout the boxing world that are still repeated today simply because Fleischer and his writers loved to embellish, sensationalize, and out right lie in order to make the stories more appealing and sell more magazines.

 

Ketchel was fearless and I have to give him credit for fighting those guys because he was the smaller man

 

The gangsters werent in the audience they were at Sharkey's training camp for a couple of weeks.

 

I meant they were in the audience at the training camp. By the way, what is the comtemporary source for this info? What were the names of the gangsters? Who identified them as members of the Purple Gang? Why did the Jewish Purple Gang of Detroit care about Carnera one way or the other? To be credible, this story does need a bit more factual detail.

 

The Purple Gang were there to muscle in on the concession for the fight films.They were present at Gus Wilson's and at Dr Bier' Health Farm at Pompton Lakes New Jersey.The go-between for Leon See and the mob was Good Time Charley Friedman.The main money man was Owney Madden ,Public Enemy Number 1,he was out on parole',his interests were looked after by Broadway Billy Duffy,also having a% was Big Frenchy Demange.When Carnera toured the US he was looked after in each state by the resident Hoods, in Philadelphia it was Maximillian Boo Boo Hoff.How many of these gentlemen were at the training camp I dont know but it is fact that members of the Purple Gang were there, if you choose to beleive the purpose for their presence was entirely innocuous that's up to you .

 

There is more evidence that fights of Sonny Liston on his way up and Jack Dempsey were fixed. The Liston come from the Senate Investigating Committee in 1960 which produced records of phone calls from a Liston opponent to Liston's manager on the day of a fight in which said opponent went out in the first.

On Dempsey, this is from the NEW YORK TIMES, February 6, 1919

MINNESOTA BANS FULTON

BOXING COMMISSION ACTS ON HIS STATEMENT ABOUT DEMPSEY BOUT

"Minneapolis; Minn, Feb 5-----The Minnesota Boxing Commission, meeting here late today, voted to bar indefinitely Fred Fulton, Rochester Minn, heavyweight fighter from boxing or sparring in Minnesota rings.
No reason was given, but it was understood that the Commissioners took the action after discussion of Fulton's statement recently in San Francisco that Jack Dempsey had 'double-crossed' him in the fight of July 27 last."

Actually, this is better evidence of hanky-panky concerning these champions than what you are producing about the Sharkey fight. And we could add Louis to this mix as he was managed by John Roxborough who allegedly ran the largest numbers racket in Detroit. Who would his muscle have been--The Purple Gang.

You can toss names around like New York Night Club owner and gangland figure Owney Madden, but the fact is the men behind champions such as Louis and Liston were just as shady, and frankly, I don't know if Jack Kearns was more trustworthy.

I lived in Missouri for a while. Show some primary source evidence that members of the Detroit Purple Gang, most of whom were dead by 1933 after a series of bloody turf wars, were actually at Sharkey's camp. None of the men you mentioned were Purple Gang members. I repeat what I said before. Who saw them? Who identified them? The Purple Gang was an underworld organization in a city 1000 miles to the west. Most of them would not be known by sight in the east.

Bottom line--I don't accept fix stories concerning ANY champion or ANY fight without strong proof. Just my take on it. There are always more rumours floating around than mosquitos on a muggy summer evening.

 

Sorry to come in between, but do you have more information on this? Considering Fulton went out in 20 seconds, it's certainly interesting to hear.

I've read about Liston's fixed fights before, in a 1960 Sports Illustrated article i believe. My take is that most champions had their share of early, fixed fights, no doubt including Carnera, but that can probably be said of all of them. The Sharkey fight looks as legit as any fight, though.

 

I can't comment on Liston or Dempsey but there were certainly plenty of mosquitoes around Carnera.

 

No I don't really. Maybe someone can dig into this. Fulton appears to have tossed a fight to Tony Fuente in 1925. I have to say he seems untrustworthy. He was arrested in connection with the Fuente fight and I think his license was suspended.

I personally don't think Fulton is at all a reliable source. He seems to be implying that some sort of agreement had been reached with Dempsey (or Kearns?) for the two to take it easy in a ND bout, but that Dempsey cold-cocked him. To me this story doesn't pass the smell test.

I agree that the Sharkey fight looks legit, as do the fights with the ill Schaaf and the over-the-hill Uzcudun and Loughran. Carnera was good enough to beat these men, which I think a lot of contenders over the years could have done, but Baer was another story.

 

I dont think Carnera would beat a well Schaaf,I think the Uzcudun fight was legit Paulino was past his best and never a puncher in his prime.Carnera was certainly good enough to take care of the second raters and some fringe contenders,but I take a lot of his kos with a large pinch of salt myself.

 

I thought Sullivan did fight ONE Black opponent before he won the title.