Did Duran just have Leonards # that night, Or did Sugar just fight the wrong fight?

How did you score the fights? Anything different than you'd remembered?

 

That is quite entertaining if nothing else. The problem you have is these words of out fighting, out punching, out thinking Duran were made by Dundee and Leonard BEFORE the fight in Montreal, along with the irrelevant reference to his KO percentage over their last 5 fights compared to the Panamanians. :yep

 

I wouldn't have thought it was too difficult to be honest.

You wrote.

I stated it was a 2 way street, and these wins should be taken in the right context if fans are going to use the beating of the 5' 7" former Lightweight with a 67" reach Duran as a measure of their greatness.

Particularly when you take into account the naturally biggest of the 3 would have lost had the fight been 12 rounds, and another of them needed a rematch to beat the little guy.

 

I don't think too many folks take fighters and trainers POST fight comments too seriously, but only a fool would down play their PRE fight comments and predictions. As far as I'm concerned those comments are paramount to the bullsh!t argument by armchair professors crying Leonard fought the wrong fight, when he and his trainer obviously DIDN'T think it was the wrong way to fight Duran going into Montreal.

Hindsight is 20 - 20.

Lets get a bit of perspective here. What we have is a 5' 10" natural Welter with a 74" reach,who has stopped 18 of 27 opponents going into the fight, facing a 5' 7" veteran Lightweight with a 66" reach.

Of course tap and run is the most obvious choice. :roll::roll:

 

I didn't score them but back in the day i had Duran winning a competitive but deserved victory in the first. SRL would have been well ahead in the rematch. I'd forgotten how sharp he was in some of the exchanges when he planted his feet. He landed some big punches in the rematch. It wasn't just his movement that done Duran in mentally but his effective imo. Duran was losing from the outside and when Leonard decided to trade he was winning that battle too with excellent flurries before getting out of there again.

 

There's no denying Duran's greatness and even his ability north of 135. I am simply openly wondering whether speed was his nemesis with the big boys more so than size and power. Hearns went at him but blinded him with speed and reach allied to the power.

If Hearns had average handspeed i don't doubt Duran would have been much more successful defensively. I also would not doubt if SRL went toe to toe in the rematch he'd be in trouble again. So i'm back to speed and movement.

I take no notice of the judges scorecards in Hagler - Duran because they were terrible. Hagler beat him comfortably but by the same token Duran performed admirably, very admirably.

If the fight was 12 and Duran won there would have been outrage, however we can't say if the fight was 12 rounds Duran would have won as that would have changed the entire dynamic of the fight. Hagler would have come on more, earlier. Like SRL - Hearns.

 

With all due respect I have not read any great numbers of people claiming Hagler beat Duran comfortably. Plus it is pure conjecture to say the dynamic of the fight would have changed had it been 12 rounds. What I have read over and over again from plenty of folks is for some reason Hagler showed Duran far more respect than his ( hagler's ) natural advantages warranted. I don't see that changing just because the fight was 9 minutes shorter.

I also don't fully buy the speed bothered Duran angle. He obviously faced plenty of guys with speed at 135, but I would say without doubt he showed less ferocity at the higher weights. Maybe the extra weight he carried sapped his stamina, and slowed him somewhat, who knows?

 

He certainly didn't put on muscle to move up. He just got fatter. You didn't see him get gassed at ww or lw. But above that his conditioning suffered

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Really? I've never heard of anyone having it anywhere near what the judges did. I've seldom seen anyone describe it as anything but comfortable. Common scores from experts around the time and also in here over the years was about 10-5 Hagler, some going down to 9-6.

The official scoring was a disgrace.

No-where near as much conjecture in saying Hagler would have lost to Duran if it were 12 rounds. Hagler's corner told him this -

They would have said the same after round 10 in a 12 rounder.

I've written a dozen times over the years Hagler showed him too much respect. This doesn't change the fact Hagler was beating him comfortably. Just because Duran went far better than expected and Hagler was far too timid against a guy he should have been dominating does not change the fact that Hagler was outboxing him regardless.

Hagler went out aggressive in the last two rounds and i just quoted what his corner told him. It would have been the same over 12. His corner sensed they needed to win by a good margin to take out possible sentimental factors and what have you.

We'll agree to disagree. There's not many fighters that aren't bothered by speed. Duran handled SRL's speed of hand when he was in front of him but he didn't handle it so well when he added speed of foot. He had trouble picking up Hearns punches more so from speed than anything. Hearns landed loads on him. Benitez was sharp as a cat when they fought.

Who would you say he faced at 135 that had the speed (not to mentin class) of SRL, Hearns and Benitez?

Agree Duran would have lost a bit of speed moving up, tho he still had some good handspeed. The extra weight may have sapped a bit of stamina tho he certainly had it in spades against Leonard.

 

Fighting bigger men too. He was gassed pretty early in the Hagler fight and as you allude, why would he not be.

 

Did anyone actually provide a source for these "pre fight comments and predicitons" from before the fight? I see Dundee's autobiography quoted by my good mate Springs but that was written well after the fight you'd think. I'd love to read up on the pre fight talk, can't beat the build up.

But yes you'd think Ray could have won a slugfest. Having said that he was brilliant in beating Palomino and showed surprising power and strength. Magazines were actually rating Duran above Leonard at 147 before he beat Benitez.

 

Definitely a 10-5/9-6 fight. Most people who've actually watched the fight seem to agree. A non-dominant performance by Hagler but he clearly edged Duran in most of the rounds. The judges misscored several rounds, probably because Duran exceeded expectations.

 

Spot on. In reality it was just never that close.

 

Not sure about the ultimate source but in the first few seconds of the fight, the commentators mention that Dundee predicted that Leonard would stop him within 4 rounds.

 

Ok. Might even get hold of his Autobiography one day. My mags are mostly after the fight and it's buildup unfortunately.