Did Foreman beat the count in the Rumble in The Jungle?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by KiwiCC, May 11, 2013.


  1. dyna

    dyna Boxing Junkie booted

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    They were.
     
  2. redrooster

    redrooster Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    he may have beaten the count but was drunk from Ali's sharp one twos

    as with Terry Norris, Ali was quick, slick, and made the opposition sick
     
  3. dyna

    dyna Boxing Junkie booted

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    Ali is pretty underrated as a puncher
     
  4. Shawn Kemp

    Shawn Kemp Guest

    Its funny how people act like Ali was Toying with Foreman or the "Rope A Dope" was this plan Ali had before he got into the ring.

    How is toying with somebody laying against the ropes hoping somebody else gets tired? Foreman forced Ali against the ropes and this is according to Ali, there was no plan. Foreman was to quick at cutting off the ring.

    Foreman's massive ego beat him. I heard Foreman talking about how he beat Frazier who Ali lost too beat Norton who Ali lost too so why would he think Ali could beat him. Basically Foreman forced Ali agianst the ropes and loaded up for the knockout. He didn't jab much or anything else.

    But lets give Ali all the credit here. Some idiot in another post actually said 30 seconds into the bout Ali landed a punch that had Foreman staggering. When the hell this did happen? The same guy claimed every round Ali had Foreman staggering around the ring.

    I don't think most of you have a clue to what you are watching or talking about.
     
  5. redrooster

    redrooster Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Good post Shawn!
     
  6. ron u.k.

    ron u.k. Boxing Addict booted

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    I see the revisionists and cranks are back at work.
     
  7. TBooze

    TBooze Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    :good

    Yes, even Foreman got over it years back, and can laugh at himself and his excuses. But give them credit, these cranks have something new.

    Actually if you look at the finish Foreman was down for the count, the referee getting to ten as Foreman begun to rise and had his glove on the floor. The only thing wrong was the commentator did his own count and got to eight... But as hard as it is to believe for some, he was not an official.

    [yt]dav1K5xvUhI[/yt]
     
  8. Anubis

    Anubis Well-Known Member Full Member

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    No, Foreman did not beat the count. Bob Sheridan was one count behind Zack Clayton when Clayton picked it up from ringside. It was a stopwatch timed full ten seconds that George was on the deck.

    The real mistake here is that Foreman did not emulate Louis and Ali in trying to get up as quickly as possible. Jack Blackburn always criticized Joe for not trying to obtain the benefit of a full count whenever he got decked, but I agree with the Bomber that the safer course of action to be sure of avoiding defeat is to get the hell back up ASAP. Jerry Quarry blew Chuvalo by attempting to obtain the benefit of a full count [a mistake he proved he learned from, when Joe Alexander later flattened him silly with a devastating hook], and Jersey Joe Walcott similarly erred in Marciano II, ending JJW's career.

    I'd have a real problem with it if George had been down for less than ten complete seconds. But while it's extremely unusual for a ten count to take as little as ten timed seconds to be administered, I don't think it's a scandal. [As for the fact of a ten second count, the youtube timer makes it clear that a stopwatch was likely the criteria applied by the ringside timekeeper counting the knockdown seconds.]

    Beating the count as quickly as possible does not allow Ali any time to hit him again before the round ends. However, round nine would have been a ghoulishly sadistic affair if Sadler and Moore had let Foreman back out. Muhammad would have been ready to utterly beat the **** out of him. George had nothing left, and Ali would have been surging with adrenalin and intoxicated with the smell of blood.
     
  9. dyna

    dyna Boxing Junkie booted

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    Beating the count =/= being up in 10 secs.
    Beating the count is simply being on both your feet before the ref says 10, it's not like Foreman had a chance anyway so it doesn't matter at all.

    (The count should start when the other fighter is in the neutral corner, the longer it takes the longer a man can rest on the ground.)
    This is why Ali didn't KO Liston is the second fight which should have been ruled a nc as Walnut was clearly a ****ty ref who didn't know what to do in a tough situation
     
  10. PetethePrince

    PetethePrince Slick & Redheaded Full Member

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    Yes, Foreman said he looked toward his corner who told him to wait and take his time, which cost him. He was done either way. Funny enough, Zack Clayton reffed the Quarry-Chuvalo fight as well. I think many refs could/would have given Foreman the benefit of the doubt as he rose practically at 10. He was rising at 9 but his glove still was on the canvas for ten I believe. I mean, Foreman basically takes ten seconds to rise. Counts are rarely that strict in terms of how long you've actually been down for versus the ref's count. Still no real complaints as it's Foreman's fault.


    Well put.
     
  11. Anubis

    Anubis Well-Known Member Full Member

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    :thinkFrom now on, I'm going to call him "Jersey Joe Walnut," and the store I usually shop in, "Wal-Nut."

    Thanks for the thought, Buddy!:good

    JJW didn't know better than to listen to Nat Fleischer, who possessed no official authority whatsoever for deferring to, but was really nothing more than another ringside reporter. Walnut wouldn't referee again until the late 1970s. Taking charge like he should have, and ignoring a noisy ringside fan [for all he knew], we might have at least enjoyed the spectacle of an interesting rematch for a few more rounds. [Really though, Ali's hernia attack cancelling the originally scheduled rematch in Boston sort of ruined any genuine chance at a competitive return.]
     
  12. PetethePrince

    PetethePrince Slick & Redheaded Full Member

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    But is this actually technically true or a myth? Of course refs pick up the count once the other fighter is in the neutral corner, but that doesn't mean they start at one. They usually start the count at what the official in charge has. This is why you can see a ref pick up the count at 4 because he has been instructing the other fighter to go in a neutral corner.

    If what you're saying where true fighters would run toward the neutral corner after knockdowns to not have any chance in disrupting or elongating a ten count. Rocky Marciano did this because I believe he looked for every single conceivable advantage (Or did so to prevent any potential disadvantage from happening) possible. That's how much he wanted to win.
     
  13. dyna

    dyna Boxing Junkie booted

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    Maybe I was slightly wrong..
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    If you score a
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    of your opponent, you must go to the farthest
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    while the referee makes the
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    But I gues it's a grey area, there are a lot of grey areas in boxing.

    Rule could be either the moment a fighter gets knocked down, the moment a fighter runs to the neutral corner or when the fighter is in the neutral corner depending on the ref.

    "A floored boxer has up to ten seconds to get back up on his feet before losing the bout by
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    Jump to:
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    "The tolling of the seconds of the clock by the referee after a boxer is knocked down. If the boxer is still down at the end of ten-counts, the fight is over by a
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    I think it's up to the ref when is being counted as it seems there is a very big grey area.

    Guess Marciano was right by directly running to the neutral corner as you never know when a ref starts his count


    Just like some refs allow pushing/clinching.
     
  14. BillB

    BillB Well-Known Member Full Member

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    The count doesn't begin until the fighter scoring the knock down is in the farthest neutral corner. Period. Once the fighter is in the neutral corner the time keeper starts the count if the referee isn't there to do it. The ref picks up the count from the time keeper when he returns.

    In Liston's case, he was up no more than a couple of seconds after Ali had gone to the neutral corner.
    He should not have been considered as knocked out.
     
  15. heavy_hands

    heavy_hands Guest

    truth
     


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