Did Foreman cut water weight at weigh-ins?

Holyfield called Foreman stronger than Lewis who was was strong physically compared to most other heavyweights. I'm not under the assumption that Chisora is stronger just because he's bigger. His words over yours, he was actually in there with Foreman. Ali was strong himself, that doesn't disprove anything.

Lyle was a slugger with top level power, if that right hand with the same power landed from a shorter fighter or a taller fighter than lyle it would've hurt Foreman no ?

 

Alex Stewart figured it out not against a 70s George but the principle is the same, if someone’s pushing you when you get in just hit them in the body… if a fighter is using his left to do that framing nonsense you only have to look at his right and vice versa… you can’t punch hard / proper unless the other hand comes back that’s why we don’t/cant throw two punches simultaneously.

 

So Holyfield said Foreman was stronger? MAYBE because when they fought GF outweighed him by near 50lbs lol Lennox didn’t impose himself the same way either and also LL beat Holyfield so there’s that … I doubt he’d have much to say about the skinny guy in the 70s who didn’t convert to being a full time weightlifter likely on PED’s ya know like a modern fighter? (Chisora, Whyte, AJ etc)… also you’re combining two different fighters lol Holyfield talks and talks most fighters do, I prefer film you should too because Foreman has said it himself in the 2nd Bowe fight as a commentator that just because a guy is being pushed around doesn’t mean he’s not stronger lol it’s because Bowe was heavier …so back to who we’re discussing we have prime Foreman man handled by Ali and his absolute limit was Ron Lyle. Quick step back into the 80s-90s… GF also on a side note went after the three smallest HW’s he could find Holyfield, Tyson and Moorer I don’t really think he believed in his super strength as much as this Forum? He outright said he wouldn’t fight the big guys like say Golota, Lewis, Bowe and Ruddock etc because he liked being the “big guy” he would not be exactly that today in his prime.

 

He's the IBF mandatory, Keep up

But film exists, Ali in the mid 70s was still incredibly athletic and a great skill and ring generalship regardless of his condition up until the 80s where he was clearly done and finally got taken out. Not only is it completely different with Chisora but he is physically shot in comparison and was never a top level fighter. Fraizers eradic head movement and cross armed defense helped his eye problem as insurance. Anyone can see his body mechanics are far superior to chisoras despite being near blind out of one eye. Film is objective. Also fighters aged and the talent pool started to decrease in the late 70s which brings us to the infamous 80s where interest in heavyweight boxing was at its lowest. Ali lasting makes sense with context. Late 70s Parkinsons Ali who fought Norton would still be a favorite over 41 year old Chisora h2h is the point. I see him outpointing derek with ease. Chisora might beat Shavers tho

Furthermore the entire point of bringing up an old Chisora is to show a shorter aggressive boxer who's physically declined, defensivly sloppy at this stage and slow can still have success in this era. Much less a top tier power puncher like Foreman with a superior jab, body puncher, chin and footwork. Chisora was bigger but plenty in the 90s have attested to Foremans impressive physical strength.

Fighter from past generation who weren't elite in their prime being top 10 during the era, such as Povetkin and Chisora. Chisora is 41 and shot and still hasn't been filtered out. Holmes was an all time great talent. Foreman was also an all time great, so equating it is a false equivalence as I expect you will attempt

For a quick verification we could just name the top 30 best heavyweights in the current era and compare that list to the 90s version in addition to the eye test. You can start after 2015. I'll start at 1990. Someone like Tim Witherspoon would beat up top 5 fighters in aj or Dubois h2h, far more skilled and defensively sound, durable, and he knew how to handle bigger guys so there wouldn't even be burden of proof. He treats them like Bruno. The 90s was objectively global and loaded with physical talent. Probably better athletes then than today if you want to take the PED and global league route.

And knock them out

Beats me, could be promotional issues but a general theme of boxing is divisions get stronger when smaller talent moves up. it's already been an established fact that top 10 cruiserweights can move up and beat top 10 heavyweights, and we haven't even seen a quarter of the cruiserweight talent attempt it. I think those statistics along with tiny guys like Briedis taking down SHW journeyman no problem and Usyk being the best heavyweight in the world has beaten the dominant SHW narrative. Fury is the best SHW of this era and the biggest elite boxer ever but the only 2 cruiserweights he fought, he got outboxed and got dropped in both instances, think about that. Cunningham is just another title holder at cruiserweight historically and a featherfist.

An elite cruiserweight or a atg power puncher can get it done against the best SHWs, Lewis who is the greatest SHW ever and used his size extremely well got knocked out by Rahman, but Foreman doesn't have a realistic chance right ? Go ahead and convince everyone that today's talent is better than the 90s lol. Ngannou would like a word, no excuses for that one.

 

Bowe lost the second fight while heavier, so it's ironic you bring that up. Foreman was middle aged lol, the human body don't get more durable in your 40s compared to it being fit in its prime. It's funny logic you've got there.

I see smaller guys in the division like Hunter, Usyk and Povetkin clinching and holding their own against bigger guys all the time, and hurting them too, so there's no real reason Foreman can't when he was stronger than most his size.

Holyfield rocked and staggered Foreman worse than Morrison and Briggs ever did but he doesnt hit nearly as hard as either. Ron Lyle being a power puncher and dropping Foreman as proof he can't fight SHWs is a non sequiter, especially when I can point out plenty of examples of SHWs getting hurt by similar sized compettion. Your logic is too black and white to be realistic

 

Calling me unrealistic? You were just arguing about “Prime” Foreman (220lbs) being bigger then Chisora (260lbs-ish) “because his bone structure” the bottom line is Foreman fought like a big guy today he would not be a big guy (he’d be tiny) the fighters who are around his size adjust by learning to box Usyk is 1# despite his size. The division left behind 70s Foreman sized maulers like it did Jeffries and Liston as “Big men” before him. Marky… what’s flawed about saying Foreman was stronger in his 30s when he took up weightlifting, was 30-35lbs heavier and likely on PED’s? What’s illogical about bringing up that Foreman admits pushing people isn’t good way to determine how strong someone is? Is it weird to say his chin would be better in the 80s-90s when he was using PED’s 30-40lbs heavier and wasn’t dehydrated? I think your logic is so gray to fit anything you want into place “Foreman is SHW sized in all but size!” Nope, little guy today, man handled by Ali “didn’t I look stronger than him?” (MA) and he nearly lost to Ron Lyle…both times physical equals or demonstratively with Ali his superior FACT he’d have mixed results fighting like a kamikaze bomber against 240lbs+ (up to 280lbs) fighters used to the strength and power of 240lbs+ (up to 280lbs) fighters he wouldn’t last long in the division, he’d be an opponent type pretty quickly. Now I’m done here.

 

Yes because PEDs didn't exist in the 70s right ? Lmao what nonesense, they were already in the US by the 60s. Foremans muscle structure looks bigger and considering he had KO power at the highest level and Chisora did not, his bones might've been bigger, it's about as reasonable of a conclusion as saying Chisora is stronger when he's gotten sparked out by a 220lb power puncher (lol)

Foreman was a 40 year old man coming back a decade out the ring and you make excuses to discredit the feat because he was somehow "better" as an even slower fat old man lol ! He lifted weights for rehab because his old body was breaking down. His innate talent allowed him to continue and the fact he could compete with anyone in the top 10 in his condition is enough physical proof that a prime Foreman could compete today.

The reality is he competed with anatomically modern day athletes as an old man and did decent, guys in the 90s were probably on even more PEDs than now. You're infamous for slating Foreman from every possible angle, all the while being disingenuous about his career

 

I say PED’s were all over the 60s I’ve said it for years, made threads on it and copped heaps for it, my assumption is you didn’t think he was on any. Fine agreed he was on PED’s and was overpowered easily by Muhammad Ali? (Imagine what Chisora could do) The major issue with his chin is his dehydration and all the evidence that it wasn’t “granite” he was so much lighter then and dehydrated which ain’t helpful lol surely that’s valid right? When did I say he was better as an old man? I made comments about certain aspects of him you tried to fuse with him in the 70s lol he was no doubt stronger, no doubt more proven with his chin as an old guy. I think it’s a combination of his new style added mass, weightlifting and ya know drinking water? I think you’re missing the points here of what I was saying and choosing to ignore a lot - a bit disingenuous no? Anyways put it all together yourself it’s all there in my posts here, I’m sick of you hitting the mental reset button every post lol no hard feelings btw Marky.

 

Well no doubt they were on peds. Chisora also got wiped out by a 220 pounder but Foreman who beat Lyle is so weak right ? An old ass Foreman 10 years out the ring is the best version we've ever seen right ?

This is ridiculous, I'm out of here

 

Haha - Mark stop it, I literally said none of this. Foreman was better in the 70s H2H (but there were differences) and Chisora being KO’d by Haye has nothing to do with Foreman? They fight nothing alike (which if you read my posts is the underlining point…) who is saying GF doesn’t hit hard? But it’s fine though you’re entitled to your opinion and you made some good points.

 

I don’t read anyone here trying to suggest that Foreman was bigger than he actually was - rather, I read laughably disingenuous attempts to improperly shrink Foreman below the reasonably understood size that he was.

The weight of 220 lbs is repeated over and over - a well implied dry out weight - but either side of the Ali fight, Foreman weighed 224 3/4 and 226 lbs respectively. In his early 20s, Foreman also fought at such higher weights earlier in his career.

His top weight in his first career was 231 1/2 lbs I believe.

For comparison to a mod. SHW, we can take 6’6” heavily muscled AJ who we know carries no lard, (let’s leave out the fatties) - AJ fighting at around mid 240s to early 250s.

Sure, AJ would hold a 2 1/2 “ height advantage and around 20 lbs weight advantage but Foreman is by no means the Lilliputian that is being ridiculously framed for here.

An equally no lard fighter 6”3 1/2” fighter (same height as Foreman), Dubois, absolutely destroyed AJ, Dubois carrying about 17 lbs more than Foreman’s first career top weight.

Further, just because 6’2” Usyk eventually hit a top weight of 221 lbs in later age and at an absolute stretch for his frame, we hear ridiculous assertions that he is the same size as Foreman.

Again, 1st career Foreman, (1 1/2” taller than Olek) at age 27 or so was already fighting about 10 lbs north of Usyk’s later age, highest weight.

Quality of opponent notwithstanding, at just 21 yo, a notably well muscled Forman at 214 lbs didn’t look so tiny as compared to 6’6”, 235 lbs Jack O’Halloran….and again also, Foreman held weight transcendent strength and power relative to his own size at any rate.

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So, @MarkusFlorez99, I see you wanted to get out of the thread, so I'll mostly focus on where we agree, since you seem like a pretty polite guy in making your arguments.

Yes, I feel like an idiot for forgetting this. Probably because it came out of nowhere when they made him the mandatory. I literally was looking through threads about this when it happened.

So, mea culpa. You're right. He is the IBF mandatory.

Now, I don't think this changes all that much. The 70s had lots of very bad title challengers, too, like Wepner and Rudi Lubbers. And that was for the undisputed crown.

That said, if Chisora clubs his way to winning the IBF, or worse, the undisputed championship, it will both be very funny, and you can feel free to send me a gloating smiley face.

Ali's Parkinsons got worse as the 70s wore on, but I think people realize he'd lost a step even compared with 67. For a guy who depended on reflexes as much as Ali, even small differences are a problem. There's an article where some experts analyzed his publicly available speech footage from across his career, and he was showing signs even in the earlier 70s, IIRC.

Shavers was the #1 contender at one point, so if you think Chisora might beat him, it would be a better result than Chisora achieved in his own time. By and large, Chisora has loitered in roughly the same place throughout his career. Gets a belt shot occasionally, but he's a lower tier contender/gatekeeper. That seems pretty stable from youth to 40+.

Right, I didn't deny Foreman could have some success in this era. He wouldn't be the best guy, but punches are still punches. He'd do OK.

90s Foreman was much heavier than 70s Foreman, and weight trained. It doesn't surprise me that his opponents considered him very strong, and I agree that he was.

Chisora has moved in and out of the top 10 for a while. He was always a fringe guy. Not much has changed, except that he's older now. And fighters stay viable longer these days, so that makes sense.

Povetkin was the #2 guy for a while behind Wlad. I wasn't sure what you mean about him not being elite; he definitely seemed to be just that. I will give you this, though: He was an example of a smaller fighter doing well in a more combative role.

No, I actually think Foreman (and Holmes) were the beginning of a trend of older guys being able to compete because of training improvements. It was really remarkable back then, since the traditional boxing of the 30s-70s didn't have a way to allow old athletes to compete. As you (maybe?) pointed out in a previous post, there were lots of reasons they burned out early from the punishment they took.

These days, guys you had remaining competitive in their 40s included Wlad, Vitali, Chisora, Zhang, Thompson (I believe), maybe Povetkin if memory serves, Luis Ortiz (formerly a Pharaoh), etc.

So I think we agree on that?

Right, so:

PEDs - Yes, they may have been even more geared up than modern guys, and had started to train in a more modern way. I agree this is either even or advantage 90s.

Size of the global talent pool - We could probably get a rough idea of this based on numbers of fights. The Iron Curtain hadn't come down yet, so that's one difference. Some of the modern top guys wouldn't have been allowed to compete back then.

Eye test - It's valuable, but I think it depends a lot on who you're fighting, and some subjectivity enters into it. So I'm fine with using it as long as its limitations are acknowledged, and you're also using other stuff.

Size - Pretty sure the modern guys are bigger on average. Although sizes had already begun to climb by the time Bowe and Lennox were running around.

I'd say the general theme of boxing is that weight divisions get created when the bigger guys start getting too big for the smaller ones. Which is the same trend you see in every combat sport.

People are unfair to Rahman, IMO. He wasn't the best fighter on Earth, but he was a good contender with lots of longevity. People talk about him knocking out Lewis like Rahman was some sort of palooka.

Still, it makes sense in the puncher heavy 90s / early 2000s that Lennox would get caught from time to time. So sure, Foreman might have a puncher's chance if a bored, out of shape Lennox lost focus, just like Lennox did with Rahman.

 

The 70s divison diluted late and Its because of styles. Chisora still being in the same position despite never being elite and shot compared to his youth means the talent wasn't good enough to filter him out or it actually decreased, and he is leagues below late 70s who still had impressive athleticism, moderate skill and ring generalship. Chisora is there for thee taking and is a similar level of physically declined as Ali was against Berbick. That version of Ali probably still beats Chisora NGL I'm rewatching that fight right now. The entire point is If an shot limited Chisora can be top 10 I'm going with the logic fighters who fought at a higher and/or hit much harder would do significantly better. Prime Foreman > prime Povetkin > old Foreman > old Povetkin > prime Chisora > old Chisora.

He'd do great

He was doing weights because of rehab his body couldn't listen to him the same way anymore he admitted this. Prime Foreman has way better footwork, accuracy due to the slight speed advantage and defense against similar level opponents. prime Foreman did not have cement feet, he chose to plod or box

Here's a fun fact. Povetkin can't fight on the backfoot. That destroys the agenda that only small movers can realistically compete. Foreman can navigate the ring in comparison, his footwork is extremely underrated

Foreman was still competing at an older age, i dont see him getting blown out by kabayel like Zhang did. Funny it's mentioned, Kabayel is a short stubby heavyweight who would be in the 210s or 220s if he were in shape, because there's no real reason he'd be better in less shape. Possibly punching harder but much slower than he used to be. He ran through Zhang, and actually had more success pressure fighting and working the body against the 280lb power puncher rather than using his feet like he did against Makhmudov and Zhangs best performance came just a year ago so it wasn't mainly age.

Iron curtin fell right at the 90s and russia/ other EE countries had plenty of ameture talent waiting to be released, Maskaev was one Vitali was another and the American talent pool was larger to compensate, more boxing gyms and interest. Deontay Wilder is the greatest American heavyweight today for reference. Just lol, if Wilder fought the same competition Michael Grant did he'd have ended up worse. His skill level is objectively poor even compared to 1950s journeyman

Fwi the Soviet style was already a thing in the 70s, Sugar Ray Leonard vs Valery Limasov. The American won

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Rahman is far inferior to prime Foreman is the point and Lewis wasn't the only top 10 big guy rahman KO'd. Pleae don't attempt the slippery slope, a 217lb Foreman would run through Hasim, less height, power and even chinnier.